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Thread: 1st tier, 2nd tier?

  1. #11
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    I like to group ARs into 2 tiers:
    Tier: I can depend on this gun with my life or Tier: its a POS hobby gun

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicious_cb View Post
    I like to group ARs into 2 tiers:
    Tier: I can depend on this gun with my life or Tier: its a POS hobby gun
    Yes, exactly what I was thinking.

  3. #13
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    This is the problem I've always had with the Chart. The casual observer or shooter who has little technical knowledge of the AR-15 style rifle looks at that chart and assigns brands into "tiers", good, bad, or indifferent. The order of the names on the chart is the thing most people immediately look at, not the actual information about the particular brands. I thought the second file which was written by the author of the chart was actually much more informative as it aimed to educate shooters about the TDP and what they should look for in a rifle before buying or building.

    Knowledge is power in many things in life and these rifles are no different. I agree there are no such things as tiers, just manufacturers who either adhere to a standard or not and it is the responsibility of the buyer/shooter to decide what they are comfortable with before buying. Obviously, more intricate knowledge of the TDP and the reputations of different manufacturers are more helpful than any "Chart".

  4. #14
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    To reiterate, tiers are bullshit and so is blind adherence to the TDP (although this is the simplest way to go about it). Ultimately, the best gun for a person is the one that meets their needs and budget. The only variable is whether or not someone is competent to make that determination. Become your own SME.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaykayyy
    And to the guys whining about spending more on training, and relying less on the hardware, you just sound like your [sic] trying to make yourself feel superior.

  5. #15
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    Tiers are just ordering mechanisms. There are various levels of AR quality. If you don't like the word "tier" because of its military implication and corollary mall-ninja'ness when used improperly, then fine, I'm with you. But there quite obviously ARE various levels of AR quality that manufacturers can be logically ordered by. This isn't to say that every single rifle from every single manufacturer can be placed nicely into some hierarchical chart. I'm just saying that natural groups do emerge when comparing various examples.

    A simple example that is not all inclusive by any means:

    1) BCM / DD

    2) RRA / BM

    When considering these four manufacturers, there is clearly a logical way to group them. You might even say -- put them into a tiered order. Gasp.
    Last edited by a0cake; 09-26-12 at 13:57.

  6. #16
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    Tiers are just a somewhat less precise way of stratifying things than ordering from best to worst. It is nowhere near unique to the military/firearms community.

    In the AR market, it would be hard to list the absolute #1 best AR manufacturer. It's a lot easier to group them into tiers where everything in a given tier is roughly equal and you can't go wrong. From reading posts on M4C I would have to conclude that the most recommended brands known for quality, accuracy, and customer service are great, brands like BCM, DD, Colt, and Noveske. Maybe KAC, LaRue, Rainier (if they count), Centurion, H&K, LWRC, and LMT as well. Then you get "bad" brands like Oly, Bushmaster, DPMS, and DTI. And middle of the road brands like Spikes, RRA, PSA, Stag, S&W, and maybe CMMG.

    That makes an easy 3 tier system, doesn't it? You could even name the tiers "Take into combat," "Commercial grade," "Don't trust with your life."

    Quote Originally Posted by a0cake View Post
    Tiers are just ordering mechanisms. There are various levels of AR quality. If you don't like the word "tier" because of its military implication and corollary mall-ninja'ness when used improperly, then fine, I'm with you. But there quite obviously ARE various levels of AR quality that manufacturers can be logically ordered by. This isn't to say that every single rifle from every single manufacturer can be placed nicely into some hierarchical chart. I'm just saying that natural groups do emerge when comparing various examples.

    A simple example that is not all inclusive by any means:

    1) BCM / DD

    2) RRA / BM

    When considering these four manufacturers, there is clearly a logical way to group them. You might even say -- put them into a tiered order. Gasp.
    Pretty much this.
    Last edited by Koshinn; 09-26-12 at 14:41.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by S. Galbraith View Post
    TDP is great....
    should be viewed as the minimum standard if you are looking to stake your life on AR type rifle verse the end all.

    It is entirely possible for someone to manufacture an AR/M4 type rifle and exceed the TDP standard.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1859sharps View Post
    should be viewed as the minimum standard if you are looking to stake your life on AR type rifle verse the end all.

    It is entirely possible for someone to manufacture an AR/M4 type rifle and exceed the TDP standard.
    Yes it is, but rarely do we see it.


    C4

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by xSentinel View Post
    Ah I get it. So when someone here says that xyz is just a third tier manufacturer what they mean is that "to them" they are a 3rd tier quality manufacturer. Of course someone else might consider that same company a 1st tier manufacturer. This can be confusing to someone reading that kind of thing written by someone whose opinion is valued. It leads a person to believe that there are actual rankings of companies that follow the specs more closely than others and as such are listed in order of their adherence to it.

    I wonder how the Sig516's non-piston parts such as barrel etc... compare quality wise. I see a lot of opinons like "Sig stuff is not as good" or "I've heard that Sig stuff is not as good" but these seem to be personal opinions more than factual data. Does anyone have any factual data about how Sig's barrels, frames, bolts and other parts other than piston parts, compare from a technical standpoint?
    Sure. It's all just personal opinion. However, there are some common observations from multiple experiences of knowledgeable people that allow categorizing different manufacturers, at least in a broad sense. Milwaukee vs DeWalt might be a horse apiece, but not many would argue Milwaukee vs Century (Harbor Freight).

  10. #20
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    I see it more are a "Go" or "No Go" type of delineation.

    AR15s that are built correctly from quality components are in the "Go" category, whereas rifles built incorrectly from inferior components are simply a "No Go".

    Go:
    Colt, Daniel Defense, Bravo Co., LMT, Noveske etc.

    No Go:
    Bushampster, Rock River, DPMS, Stag etc

    The only place where someone really shed light on the components and build specs was "The Chart" that is linked to in the technical forum.

    Without a simplistic reference like that, in order to discern if a rifle was good to go we really had to wade through a massive amount of anecdotal information on gun forums or publications. That is why companies like Bushampster still outsell a company like Bravo Co.

    Cameron
    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    In case anyone is keeping score, Cameron just won.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Salad0892 View Post
    Cameron won again.

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