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Thread: 1st tier, 2nd tier?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    That makes an easy 3 tier system, doesn't it? You could even name the tiers "Take into combat," "Commercial grade," "Don't trust with your life."
    This seems to be the most reasonable, but its hard to differentiate the Commercial grade and Dont trust with your life, because if im going to trust my life on my firearm, its going to be Combat grade, not Commercial.

    BCM, Colt, DD, LMT, KAC, Noveske are the 6 i would trust my life with.

    Your S&W's, Sigs, Stags, PSAs, Cmmgs have potential, but havent been proven to be truely combat grade yet.

    Rock River, DPMS, Olympic arms, Bushmaster, Delton, Windham Weaponry, ect dont cut it for me.

    Like most have said, Look at the technical specs, and ignore the fancy rails, stocks, and 2 stage triggers ect.
    Last edited by VIP3R 237; 09-26-12 at 17:05.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by a0cake View Post
    Tiers are just ordering mechanisms. There are various levels of AR quality. If you don't like the word "tier" because of its military implication and corollary mall-ninja'ness when used improperly, then fine, I'm with you. But there quite obviously ARE various levels of AR quality that manufacturers can be logically ordered by. This isn't to say that every single rifle from every single manufacturer can be placed nicely into some hierarchical chart. I'm just saying that natural groups do emerge when comparing various examples.

    A simple example that is not all inclusive by any means:

    1) BCM / DD

    2) RRA / BM

    When considering these four manufacturers, there is clearly a logical way to group them. You might even say -- put them into a tiered order. Gasp.
    This is probably the best answer to the thread topic. We all tend to rank things and for many of us when someone mentions Tier 1 and AR in the same sentence, we think of Colt, BCM, DD and very few others. When you hear Tier 2 or Tier 3, then it gets argumentative. Stick with quality and life gets much easier.
    US Army 1966-69, VFW Life Member, Retired Geek

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 1859Sharps
    TDP should be viewed as the minimum standard if you are looking to stake your life on AR type rifle verse the end all.

    It is entirely possible for someone to manufacture an AR/M4 type rifle and exceed the TDP standard.
    Yes it is, but rarely do we see it.


    C4
    This is a good point. While a lot of claims are made about the (ir)relevance of TDP, the products which don't adhere to it as closely as they (legally) can are most often not made to a similar or higher standard.

    I'm not saying this is universally true, but in my selection/grading process, those which don't follow TDP need to provide more detailed information and/or justify why they made the decisions they did in design and production choices, moreso than those who we accept as "known good" manufacturers.
    Last edited by everyusernametaken; 09-26-12 at 18:31.

  4. #24
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    As far as reliability the only things that matter are the BCG and the LPK. A barrell is always reliable, maybe not accurate but reliable. Everything else on the rifle makes almost no difference

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan46n2 View Post
    As far as reliability the only things that matter are the BCG and the LPK. A barrell is always reliable, maybe not accurate but reliable. Everything else on the rifle makes almost no difference

    This not accurate. The barrel can have an out of spec chamber, oversized gas port, etc that will directly affect reliability.



    C4

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    This not accurate. The barrel can have an out of spec chamber, oversized gas port, etc that will directly affect reliability.



    C4
    Well I would consider that defective but I see your point. I'm saying the high price people pay for a complete rifle are only insuring reliability for a few parts of the rifle that really matter. The upper/lower receiver, a barrell that is in spec and has the right size port, etc.. dont make much of a difference.
    Last edited by Dan46n2; 09-26-12 at 19:19.

  7. #27
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    Things that are out of spec will usually give you problems right away, a bolt breaking at 500 rounds in an emergent situation rather than at the expected time would be the type of reliability problems I would be concerned about because you can't predict them. If something doesn't work on your rifle you fix/replace it immediately but a part breaking unexpectedly is a bad situation you can't predict.
    Last edited by Dan46n2; 09-26-12 at 19:26.

  8. #28
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    Hmmmm...I try to post as little as possible and just read and learn from the plethora of knowledge on this forum. After reading this thread though:

    My take as complete noob here and as someone who appreciates quality(when I know better ), is that there are no tiers. Manufacturers either meet or exceed the TDP. Period.

    If I want to learn about commercial grade etc. I'll go to other sites...there are several that I can think of off of the top of my head. I joined here after lurking for weeks because of the knowledge and the no bullshit but entertaining responses from knowledgeable people. Not to mention the opportunity for training classes/networking etc.

    Basically...if a manufacturer can't meet the "minimum" standard...what does that say for both the rifle in question and the manufacturer's commitment to quality? For what most of these manufactures charge at retail for their rifles there is no reason for them to not meet the TDP which has been established for quite a while now.

    The more I learn the more I can't stand the fact that some of these mfgs try to make different models or "tiers" and then those supposedly better rifles in their lines still don't meet the TDP. Once I found out my rifle probably wasn't up to what I want to do with it I promptly got a new one. That's just what one noob did though...I don't see a grey area with certain firearms; it either is or isn't.

    I'll step off of my soapbox now...I know I'm still new here.

    Have a good one,
    T

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron View Post
    I see it more are a "Go" or "No Go" type of delineation.

    AR15s that are built correctly from quality components are in the "Go" category, whereas rifles built incorrectly from inferior components are simply a "No Go".
    I wouldn't use a "go/no go" delineation considering what go/no go actually means in regard to rifles.
    “Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    Tiers are just a somewhat less precise way of stratifying things than ordering from best to worst. It is nowhere near unique to the military/firearms community.

    In the AR market, it would be hard to list the absolute #1 best AR manufacturer. It's a lot easier to group them into tiers where everything in a given tier is roughly equal and you can't go wrong. From reading posts on M4C I would have to conclude that the most recommended brands known for quality, accuracy, and customer service are great, brands like BCM, DD, Colt, and Noveske. Maybe KAC, LaRue, Rainier (if they count), Centurion, H&K, LWRC, and LMT as well. Then you get "bad" brands like Oly, Bushmaster, DPMS, and DTI. And middle of the road brands like Spikes, RRA, PSA, Stag, S&W, and maybe CMMG.

    That makes an easy 3 tier system, doesn't it? You could even name the tiers "Take into combat," "Commercial grade," "Don't trust with your life."


    Pretty much this.
    DTI. I assume that is DelTon. What makes them "bad"?

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