Survival vs survival...what's the difference?

[ASH556]

I grew up spending a lot of time outdoors. My mother and I were blessed to rent a house on some of our friends' family property of 60 acres. Hunting, shooting, fishing, and camping were daily activities. Vacations consisted of spending a week or two with grandpa in the south GA woods cutting timber and learning more natural oddities and facts. (Plant id, animal tracking, woodcraft).

I joined the scouts at age 11 and stayed active through achieving the Eagle Scout Rank at age 18. Our scoutmaster completed his 50th year as a scoutmaster just before I reached Eagle, so the way things were done in our troop were a lot more traditional (better).

My basic question is this: I read about the general approach to survival here and having discussions with others in the firearms community and there seems to be a difference in mindset. I'm not quite sure how to describe it, but it almost seems like there's an unwarranted level of paranoia about it or something. People have to have all sorts of whiz-bang gadgetry to start a fire or purify some water...what's the deal?

Am I missing some higher-level survival stuff or is it just that most people didn't grow up around it like I did, so it's not just common knowledge?

Anyone with insight to both sides? Does my question even make sense?

[Koshinn]

I grew up spending a lot of time outdoors. My mother and I were blessed to rent a house on some of our friends' family property of 60 acres. Hunting, shooting, fishing, and camping were daily activities. Vacations consisted of spending a week or two with grandpa in the south GA woods cutting timber and learning more natural oddities and facts. (Plant id, animal tracking, woodcraft).

I joined the scouts at age 11 and stayed active through achieving the Eagle Scout Rank at age 18. Our scoutmaster completed his 50th year as a scoutmaster just before I reached Eagle, so the way things were done in our troop were a lot more traditional (better).

My basic question is this: I read about the general approach to survival here and having discussions with others in the firearms community and there seems to be a difference in mindset. I'm not quite sure how to describe it, but it almost seems like there's an unwarranted level of paranoia about it or something. People have to have all sorts of whiz-bang gadgetry to start a fire or purify some water...what's the deal?

Am I missing some higher-level survival stuff or is it just that most people didn't grow up around it like I did, so it's not just common knowledge?

Anyone with insight to both sides? Does my question even make sense?

Before answering, here's my background:
Born and raised in a small city.
Participated in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, but quit before reaching eagle.
Participated in Army JROTC in highschool, the only things I learned worth anything outside the military is land navigation.
Currently Active duty USAF, but the only "field" training came from ECAC and pre-deployment combat training.
I watch Survivorman and Man vs. Wild every so often on Discovery Channel.


The idea about whiz-bang gadgetry like a lighter is that if we have technology available, why not use it? Don't neglect basic fieldcraft (flint, rubbing two sticks, etc), but take advantage of modern conveniences while you can. If you're just camping for a weekend, what's an extra oz and buck for a BIC lighter?

Sure you can start a fire to boil water, but that takes longer, possibly uses up fire-making tools, and at night lets everyone around know where you are. Alternatively, you can use water purification tablets and just drop it in. Or if you have them, throw the water in a clear waterbottle and leave it in the sun for the entire day.

In my limited experience, helpful tools and technologies allows people to conserve energy and save time while those tools and technologies last. If you have a camp or site with storage, those tools and technologies could last a lifetime, and the extra weight would be negligible. Even a vehicle or pack animal can make carrying these little conveniences worthwhile.

Hope I answered your question well enough.

[Zhurdan]

I've found that a lot of folks say they can light a fire with nothing more than a flint, but when asked to do so... well, FAIL.

Fieldcraft IS a perishable skill. Many people learned to do it years ago and automatically assume they can still do it ten years later. The paranoia, I think, comes from some deep seated fear that they actually realize its a perishable skill so they compensate with wiz-bang devises.

Even though I have some of the wiz-bang devises myself, I make it a point on every camping trip to light at least a fire or two the hard way, just to make sure I can.

Fishing with nothing more than line and a hook is another fun thing to do. Friends often ask "dude, why don't you just use your pole?" and I often say "I will, but I wanna catch one this way first." Besides, it makes it more interesting, at least to me.

[nineteenkilo]

To the OP - I think it's a bit of both. I am as rural as it gets these days, but I've lived in large metro areas. There is no question that people raised like us take for granted the basics of outdoor functioning. Many of the metroids that I've encountered considered such skills at best as pointless. Others consider them the trademark of the great unwashed barbarian horde.

The fact is, it doesn't matter what or why-to me at least.

I'm comfortable doing as other posters have done and maintain my skills through semi-regular use. I use the local scout troop as an outlet since my son is a member. I get to teach as well as learn/remember/practice the perishable skills on which I may one day have to rely.

I never fail to astound myself at how little I actually know.

[ASH556]

Before anything gets read the wrong way, I'm not intending to claim that I know everything about survival or anything. For sure, honing skills and practicing to stay sharp are important. I just noticed a difference.

I'm not opposed to technology. For pete's sake, I graduated from the Georgia Institute of it

Let's take fire for example. I carry in my pack:
1) 1 butane lighter
2) 1 Bic lighter
3) Matches in a ziplok bag
4) Flint & steel in another ziplok bag with dryer lint

That's 4 ways to start a fire in my pack. Every time I go camping, I always start the first fire with flint & steel just to make sure I still remember how.

Like most things in life, though, it's mostly prep work. I don't care if you've got a propane torch, you're not going to have much of a fire if you don't build it right to start with. Do you know how to tailor the fire to heat, vs cooking, vs less smoke, vs more smoke (signal fire)?

I guess I just like taking a natural, common-sense approach to the outdoors and survival, and some of the "prepper" mentality just escapes me with the level of gadgetry they promote.

In fact, the more I think and read about it lately, I'm thinking a muzzle loading firearm with the ability to cast lead balls might be the best bet for sustainability after about 5 years of social collapse...that or a bow/arrow.

Anyhow...

[Caduceus]

My background:
suburban upbringing, made Eagle at 16, lots of camping in my troop - over 300 nights camping by the time I left.

You're a bit vague ...

paranoia? You mean needing guns and ammo? If so, well, you're on a gun board ...

Or do you mean having 8 ways to start fire, 3 to navigate, 7 to clean water .... ?

Lots of folks replace knowledge with gear. When I was a scout I carried a lighter, a MRE match book, and one of those god awful magnesium/flint bars to start a fire. Nearly everything else did NOT have a backup. Not saying I was Mr. Know It All, I just didn't like carrying a lot, and figured if I had fire and a knife, then I was good for nearly every circumstance (grew up in SoCal).

Might get better answers if you clarify what exactly you're trying to ask.

[Reagans Rascals]

...Sure you can start a fire to boil water, but that takes longer, possibly uses up fire-making tools, and at night lets everyone around know where you are.

enter the Dakota fire hole.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXDlSjZ5fgQ

[ASH556]

My background:
suburban upbringing, made Eagle at 16, lots of camping in my troop - over 300 nights camping by the time I left.

You're a bit vague ...

paranoia? You mean needing guns and ammo? If so, well, you're on a gun board ...

Or do you mean having 8 ways to start fire, 3 to navigate, 7 to clean water .... ?

Lots of folks replace knowledge with gear. When I was a scout I carried a lighter, a MRE match book, and one of those god awful magnesium/flint bars to start a fire. Nearly everything else did NOT have a backup. Not saying I was Mr. Know It All, I just didn't like carrying a lot, and figured if I had fire and a knife, then I was good for nearly every circumstance (grew up in SoCal).

Might get better answers if you clarify what exactly you're trying to ask.

The second part of your statement is probably more of what I'm getting at. Don't get me wrong, I carry 2 sets of spare batteries and a spare light, a spare knife, and at lest 3 ways to start a fire, but some folks seem to just go overboard on gadgetry. They way they talk about survival, it makes you wonder how people lived 200 years ago.

I guess the best way I know to explain my feelings is with an example...we had this kid try to join our troop one time. His name was John and he demanded that we call him "Sarge." He was a typical G.I. Joe wannabe type guy. He showed up for the first two night trip with tons of milsurp gear...sleeping bag, pack, canteens, and wearing BDU's. While we were setting up our tents and laying out our insulating mats, he was calling us pussies and bragging about how he didn't need a sleeping pad or even a tent. At 8'oclock the next morning, his parents were there to pick him up and he was crying.

Maybe it's different here on m4C (most things are) I looked through this section to try to find an example and couldn't really find one. That's a good thing.

Bottom line, I think some basic tools and training will take you a lot further than stockpiles of MRE's, a generator, and 10 different ways to purify water.

[ASH556]

enter the Dakota fire hole.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXDlSjZ5fgQ

That is a great idea...You could cook over it too by just putting your pot right on top of the fire hole and the fire can still breathe.

[soulezoo]

That is a great idea...You could cook over it too by just putting your pot right on top of the fire hole and the fire can still breathe.

Yes, and fashion a proper backstop to radiate the heat toward you...

That is but one example of old ways that are mostly forgotten.

To the OP, sure there is some amount of downright paranoia amongst some. Then there are those that have a lot of pent up anxiety over what they read constantly (the coming teotwawki stuff) or those that simply notice the uptick in certain trends and makes them feel like they don't want to miss the boat. Like the zombie thing; hell there's enough of that now theat there is hornady ammo specialized for them, EoTech sight just for them and a whole web page on the CDC website about it. So is it a genuine concern or simply taking advantage of a good reason to move product at inflated prices? You make your own conclusions.

As far as the survival itself, I was a city boy- went through cub,webelo,boy scouts up to 1st class anyway. Most outdoor skills gained there and the many years of hunting.

Technology, sure, I'll take advantage of it where I can and do pack it. I believe in redundancy too. (4 10mm pistols... yikes!)

Ultimately, whatever floats your boat and serves your need. Life's short- be happy with what you want to do. I let the others worry about themselves, don't care what others think of my choices. But do educate yourself. Like the OP's last statement about simple tools and training vs MRE's and generator... well, I choose all of the above that I can afford! Insert Boy Scout Motto here.... then Illegitimati non-carborundum.