Survival vs survival...what's the difference?

[SteveS]

I think we have a lot of folks in the United States -- it seems to be a generation X and later thing -- who think that things are more important than knowledge or experience.

This is the same thing we see with many firearms owners (seems especially in the last 20 years to be on significant increase): people who are obsessing over minute details of their rifle, and all kinds of accessories, yet barely spend any time actually shooting it or getting experienced as a rifleman. They see much more importance in the tool than they do the ability to use it, or even the ability to achieve the same result through expertise and a lesser tool.

All that matters is tacticool.

[Smedley]

In fact, the more I think and read about it lately, I'm thinking a muzzle loading firearm with the ability to cast lead balls might be the best bet for sustainability after about 5 years of social collapse...that or a bow/arrow.

Anyhow...

I dunno, I used to be able to make do for a couple weeks in the field with an E-Tool, a pocket hammock, a medium weight sleeping bag, a poncho and some C-Ration matches. As I got older and softer and accumulated lots more survival gear hard routine became increasingly a thing of the past for me. That is why I accumulated all the survival gear to begin with. .. If the grid went down for an extended length of time ("5 yrs ?!"), yeah man, Bows & Arrows might not be such a bad idea. .. Seriously looking into a high power spring-air powered rifle lately, it's about the only thing left on the shelves these days...

[Ty_B]

I took a class with Tracker Dan via Northern Red last October. You can look up his background if you want, but Dan has an extensive background in living/surviving outside.

He taught the primitive and modern methods of fire, shelter, cord, and edge, and he was very clear that there is no reason why you shouldn't have fire, edge, and cord with you at all times. Obviously it is a hell of a lot easier to make fire with a Bic than with sticks, and he stressed that, mostly by making us try to create fire with sticks. We were even allowed to use paracord for the bow, which still didn't help much for the students.

At that time, the woods were very damp. Damp enough that I couldn't find any tinder in the woods dry enough for a firesteel to work on. Dan explained ways to plan for that and how to dry tinder when you have the time, but at that moment, primitive or even semi-modern (firesteel) fire was not happening.

No amount of skill is going to make a primitive fire as easy as modern fire when the conditions are difficult. You should have the necessary skills and you should have planned well enough so that you also have the necessary gear.

[Legion6]

Depends on your definition of technology. Everyone wants to at least have a knife on you when in a survival situation. A knife is a tool, thus, technology. Make a fire with a bow and drill? A tool also, technology. Make a fire with flint and steel? Technology, because it's a tool, man-made. Get me point. Some depend on the more advanced technologies, some on the more primitive, but we all need some technology to survive. Live and let live. If it helps them, then good for them.

[Mac5.56]

Am I missing some higher-level survival stuff or is it just that most people didn't grow up around it like I did, so it's not just common knowledge?

Anyone with insight to both sides? Does my question even make sense?

I grew up in a very similar way to you but in a more hostile environment. The answer is yes most people didn't grow up like you so they are easily swayed by "survivalist" marketing. Ever since Y2K there has been an upsurge in gadgetry to sell to the paranoid.

There is something to be said about having quality equipment. But, knowing what equipment is critical seems to be lost on most people.

[Atg336]

To OP - don't forget that we are a consumer society, hence, people are trained to buy shit and spend money before thinking: "well, I already have a majority of essentials around me in the house." This is true for the suburbanite or the avid hunter walking around in Cabelas. Marketing is like a warm gun.

Most people tend to not activate their creativity and re-purpose their belongings for survival gear, i.e.: plastic powdered drink bottles with screw caps - emergency med kit storage that is water proof, trash bags inside (3 mil) to waterproof your backpack if it isn't waterproof, keep two sets of plastic spoon, knife, fork, napkin salt/pepper packs you get at hotels or wherever - point being having backup utensils and extra tinder, etc. So the point is that if you look around the house, you will find many things for survival that you don't need to spend on.

My opinion is that survival depends half on luck and half on the ability to adapt to a changing environment, sans gizmos, I don't care if they make the first week easy, in the end we all go back to the essentials.

[K.L. Davis]

There is no doubt that a lot of *basic skills* that most of us take for granted have been lost in the last couple of generations - and a mindset that skill can be replaced with equipment; we we see this with firearms, cars, and survival gear.

I have found that I carry less and less as the years go by... in fact, I find that I have been downgrading my pack for many years now - but the key thing for me is really this: what does survival mean to you?

Is it the ability to survive on your own in the wilderness? To colonize that area? Or to live long enough to get your butt home nose before toes? I wrote this for ITS a couple of months ago... and in a slight breach of etiquette I will link to it here: Redefining Survival.

To me, there are a certain set of skills that a person should have... while they may fall well short of being a pioneer; they ability to make a fire, read a map, sharpen a knife and many other things are just the tricks one picks up as part of life... unfortunately, far too many have been insulated from that life and now revere them as *specialized* skills.

[Mbrokaw89]

You learned how to survive the wilderness and elements. All of us whack jobs are preparing for the total collapse of society brought about from the zombie menace that was engineered by the government to take all of our guns away in the aftermath of an enemy attack on our power grid following years of undermining our national economy.

[trinydex]

however; most standard "preppers" are oblivious to this technique because they have no real world knowledge or experience to fall back on... they simply hoard technology and hope that will be enough... and in the end... those people will be the first to go because they are not self sustainable without their "stores"

it sucks to try and light a friction fire in wet, windy, cold, snowy, dark conditions... and its damn near impossible... but what if that is all you can do?

technology fails... knowledge and experience are the only true valuable resources...

however... if you have that knowledge and experience... there's nothing in the books that says that's all you're allowed to rely on... sometimes its ok to use technology... sometimes its more than fine to use a lighter or ferro rod... but the idea is to be self sufficient with nothing... as in... you end up in a survival situation without even a blade... and you can make do...

its called learn the basics first... then build your knowledge base on top of that...

i disagree to a certain extent. i agree you can't rely on technology, but the technology available you should exploit.

you just said that making a friction fire in wet, windy, cold, snowy, dark conditions is hard to impossible. i agree. even in ideal conditions it is really difficult and not always feasible given what's available around you. if you have experience doing this the lesson learned is typically, carry wet tinder. use wind and wet proof matches. those two TINY things turn increase you chances of survival. your fall off a hiking trail at dusk, the fall that broke one arm and badly sprained one ankle, while you were wearing nothing but "day hike" clothing, will make your night in the cold more survivable. if you were stupid enough to go on a day hike alone with no supplies whatsoever and you end up at the bottom of a valley, even if you knew how to make a friction fire with a bow and drill you wouldn't be doing so with a broken arm and and sprained ankle and no knife.

i feel like you're saying knowledge and experience are all you need to rely on. i feel like knowledge and experience should GUIDE your preparation. the mother of all mess ups is a lack of preparation in some regard. if you have knowledge and experience, but there was no technology acquired to maximize your chances of operating well under duress then that's not enough.

maybe you're saying the same thing, but i wanted to say it in a different way to be clear that there are things that the modern world produces that should be used by people who are concerned with being prepared for when bad things happen.

[Reagans Rascals]

If you re-read my post you'll see that I was explicitly stating the "what if" scenario... if you don't have that wet tinder or the tech like you described then what?

You predicate your post on simply being prepared, but you cannot always carry what you need for every situation, besides the knowledge in your brain and the experience in my hands.

I specifically stated that you need to completely self sufficient without technology... and then add it as you progress in your skills for redundancy...

No one starts flying and strictly uses Garmin G-1000 glass cockpits, never knowing the basics... in the end you still need to know how to fly the plane and use steam gauges

You train and prepare for real world scenarios... not hypothetical situations where you can go "hmm well I'll have this and this and that with me"

Technology Dependent training is a crutch and sets you up for failure.... Fail to train and you are training to fail