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Thread: THE TDP and how its possible to follow without access.

  1. #1
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    THE TDP and how its possible to follow without access.

    Question,
    How can the different manufacturers follow adherance to the TDP if only Colt has access to it? How did Rob S make the chart without accessing the TDP? And how do we know the tolerances/testing specs/material specs without actually seeing the TDP? How can any manufacturers claim to meet milspec manufacturing/testing specifications? Just trying to find out how everyone knows the basic TDP specs.
    Im genuosly curious.
    Thanks

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    Is BCM/LMT/Noveske/DD reverse engineering actual military issued M4/M16's? I just want to know how the indistry got the specs of "the chart"

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    Full disclosure: I'm the editor of Calibre Magazine, which is Canada's gun magazine. In the past I've done consulting work for different manufacturers and OEM suppliers, but not currently. M4C's disclosure policy doesn't seem to cover me but we do have advertisers, although I don't handle that side of things and in general I do not know who is paying us at any given time.

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    Thats a good read but it doesnt answer my question. The only people with access to the TDP are colt, FN, the US army and now aparently remigton. I want to know how other companies can get the basic info to build a rifle pretty close to spec. Or is it Reverse Engineering at work?

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    I feel like a fair amount of reverse engineering takes place in the firearm industry, but the technical details can be acquired by any company willing to enter the bid process item for 'this or that' items requiring access. A good for instance is the release of the TDP for the creation of the SOPMOD accessories/BFA's that created such a firestorm back in 96.

    As to whether Rob and others have access - I would say no. Colt has spent years in dealing with this sort of issue (rightfully so since they have a substantial investment in R and D). The only leaks that I am aware of have been a result of the Gov and the ensuing NDA's were fairly brutal. Even FN couldn't dodge them completely.

    I believe Grant and a few others can offer more substantial insight than I can due to their ongoing business relationships.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lockup1109 View Post
    Thats a good read but it doesnt answer my question. The only people with access to the TDP are colt, FN, the US army and now aparently remigton. I want to know how other companies can get the basic info to build a rifle pretty close to spec. Or is it Reverse Engineering at work?
    Most companies who make claims about being "milspec" are only referring to a particular material type, finish/coating, or reverse engineered physical dimension. For example, a company who advertises a "milspec" barrel is likely referring only to specific attributes such as the steel alloy, twist rate, bore coating, etc., and is not implying that the entire barrel is manufactured to exact TDP specifications. In my opinion, the term "milspec" is incredibly overused (and misused) to the point where it has almost lost its significance.

    That said, the rumor is that copies of the official M4/M16 TDP have been leaked throughout our industry, so it is quite possible that some manufactures are producing weapons in accordance with that data.
    --Nick
    Owner, Reptilia & Side Project, LLC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lockup1109 View Post
    Question,
    How can the different manufacturers follow adherance to the TDP if only Colt has access to it? How did Rob S make the chart without accessing the TDP? And how do we know the tolerances/testing specs/material specs without actually seeing the TDP? How can any manufacturers claim to meet milspec manufacturing/testing specifications? Just trying to find out how everyone knows the basic TDP specs.
    Im genuosly curious.
    Thanks
    Good question. The answer is that there are a lot of older, black market copies floating around. A lot of reverse engineering goes on as well.

    The thing that I find most interesting about the TDP is that there are things in there that Colt deviates from as they found a better way to do it.

    The TDP is a living/breathing document. So if you got a look at one 5 years ago, things have changed.



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 10-02-12 at 15:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickB View Post
    Most companies who make claims about being "milspec" are only referring to a particular material type, finish/coating, or reverse engineered physical dimension. For example, a company who advertises a "milspec" barrel is likely referring only to specific attributes such as the steel alloy, twist rate, bore coating, etc., and is not implying that the entire barrel is manufactured to exact TDP specifications. In my opinion, the term "milspec" is incredibly overused (and misused) to the point where it has almost lost its significance.

    That said, the rumor is that copies of the official M4/M16 TDP have been leaked throughout our industry, so it is quite possible that some manufactures are producing weapons in accordance with that data.
    Right on. To dumb it down even further, many companies use the term "mil-spec" to mean that their parts will fit/work with an actual M16/M4.

    An example of this is the Receiver Extension. Many companies offer/make a "mil-spec" one. In this term they mean that the SIZE of the RE conforms to the military standard (not the quality and how it is made).

    The TDP calls for the RE to be hammer extruded and made out of 7075T6. To my knowledge only Colt and BCM offer this (could be others, but those are the only two I know for a fact that follow this).



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 10-02-12 at 15:03.

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    Because they dont adhere to the TDP. Some materials/specs/testing procedures are well proliferated and have become an industry standard. Other bits, companies like DD and BCM use their own specs ( gas port size, gas system length, lower specs etc.)



    Its that easy.


    ETA google MIL-C71186, its an older outline defining some of the basics and testing protocol, no specifics as per material or drawings in the PDF but a fascinating read non the less.
    Last edited by Split66; 10-02-12 at 15:10.
    http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQ2zEv1ukzyH_aeFG6-amwPk7CUBz7b4URcTQ8lFFl-LOLSDkQ

    "BRD, much like the Wutang clan, is nothing to f@ck with"

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    I've heard the one about a manufacturer seeing an older version before.

    In a nutshell, Colt would have the latest information, but XYZ company has a version from several years ago.

    I'm thinking this isn't necessarily that big a deal: sometimes changes are miniscule, or make manufacturing easier (or cheaper) and don't necessarily mean your carbine is inadequate because it wasn't made with Change #173.

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