Rethinking Sling Techniques

[BTL BRN]

I am hopeful that my comments/questions will be adequately understood, and that I don't come across as dogmatic or "that guy." I am genuinely trying to understand the differences I see in some instructors' techniques and hoping to refine my training as needed. That said flame suit on, should the need arise.

I have taken around 3 rifle courses within one school of thought (certainly a minority) which teaches that the two-point sling should hang from the rifle (think AK) and in most cases the rifle not be "worn" by the shooter. The shooter is free to arrest/retain the sling when the engagement requires (CQB) or let it free when in a "safer" distance. When transitioning to pistol, the shooter will essentially throw the rifle over their shoulder; so that the rifle hangs behind, and access their secondary weapon. This is thought to free up movement, as opposed to having a rifle drape between your legs or across your chest and you shoot and move; or more specifically haul ass. I can understand the thought behind this being that if you are transitioning to your secondary weapon you are typically in the deep $hit of things; and movement is key. In addition the transition from strong to support side is much easier and faster with the sling in the draped position. When the rifle is to be carried, African carry is the most common form; as the rifle is simply slung and hangs over the weakside shoulder.

Can some of the more seasoned here relate some cons to this? I am interested in learning why what is taught essentially across the board is accepted, and how I might need to adjust my previous instruction.

I did search the board for specific posts regarding my question, but didn't find anything that was in direct relation. Hopefully this is a worthwhile thread.

Thanks!

[Jippo]

I'll chime in as I am pretty much 2-point school of thought.

FDF uses AK's with two point slings. Rifle is carried hanging from the neck 95% of the time. That means that sling doesn't go around your shoulders on either side. In transition the rifle would be left hanging unsupported or it could be held with the support hand. If two hands are needed (searching a suspect, carrying other stuff, etc.) firing hand would be just put through between the sling & rifle putting the rifle hanging on your back muzzle down, barrel on your firing hand side buttstock on the other shoulder. Very much like you would run an AR American style except for the sling not going around the support shoulder.
Why I wrote this is it works relatively well. It is fast, comfortable, simple. I wanted to write this first because I think there are good ways to work with the 2-point sling. Now on the other hand:

I really do not like one bit the method of throwing the rifle over ones head desperately trying to hang the rifle in a hurry. It just doesn't work always.
1. If you are in narrow space you will not necessarily have the physical space in which to do it.
2. If you are part of a unit you will very easily point the gun at somebody whilst doing a movement in which it is easy to have your trigger snag on something setting the gun off.
3. It is too complicated.
4. It is too slow.
5. It is absolutely too slow to get the gun back in your hands from hanging.
6. It doesn't work in all situations.

I think I would blow my fuses instantly if somebody would do this techique on the range I am running, and that is for the number 2 alone. The techinque is dangerous! It is not always wise to copy what the Russians do. They do not care for the well being of their soldiers to begin with. They are also well behind the learning curve in weapons manipulations, even with an AK.

Ten years ago it was the Israelis who knew how to run an AK. These days that knowledge has spread to the US and it beats the Russian stuff 2-0.

I added a few photos of the sling usage we do here to clarify the matter.

[BTL BRN]

Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it; I also value perspective from someone outside the US.

Without being argumentative, let me address the following points you made in red, as we were taught.

1. If you are in narrow space you will not necessarily have the physical space in which to do it.

Very true, in which case you simply retain the rifle with the support hand and fire your secondary with the strong; not ideal and I certainly agree that this is a weak point.

2. If you are part of a unit you will very easily point the gun at somebody whilst doing a movement in which it is easy to have your trigger snag on something setting the gun off.

I completely agree that it is far from the safest method, and probably a major reason why it is not taught commonly. However, if you are transitioning to pistol it is because your rifle has stopped due to either a malfunction or being out of ammo; in which case typically trigger issues aren't a concern. Slippery slope though, especially for a training course; I do not question why it makes others very uncomfortable.

3. It is too complicated.

Less so if you train this way perhaps?

4. It is too slow.

Same answer as to #3.

5. It is absolutely too slow to get the gun back in your hands from hanging.

I think you end up exactly as in the first picture in this sequence -




6. It doesn't work in all situations.

Agreed, but what does and that is why we attempt to train for as much as we can.

Again, thanks for your response and for taking the time to post pictures; and I do agree about Russian manipulations and the value placed on soldiers/etc.

[NCPatrolAR]

The loose hanging sling has many negatives and is taught to solve the issue of long guns equipped with just a carry strap (and by people that simply want to be different).

The free hanging sling is a potential snag hazard. It can snag on foliage, vehicles, or a host of other things. The thought that you can secure it when needed is a hopeful thought, but won't always happen.

The overhead dump transition is slow and prone to failure. It's much easier to simply use a single hand to guide the long gun down as the dominant hand secures the pistol and begins its movement out to the threat.

Having the sling attached to your body always helps to maintain control of the long gun in case you drop it, become involved in a weapon retention situation, or you're forced to use the long gun with one hand

[NCPatrolAR]

3. It is too complicated.

Less so if you train this way perhaps?

How is moving the carbine over your head, threading an arm through the sling, and then releasing it less complicated than simply using a single hand to guide the carbine down while the dominant hand moves to the handgun?

4. It is too slow.

Same answer as to #3.

It takes longer to dump the gun over your head from a pure economy of motion perspective

5. It is absolutely too slow to get the gun back in your hands from hanging.

I think you end up exactly as in the first picture in this sequence -

Its slower to bring the gun back into action when it is behind your back versus in front of your body. Again; economy of motion

[amadeus76]

The Gabe Suarez school, right...?

Personally I actually prefer this sling method for most situations... But as with all things, situations dictates.

The overhead dump transition is slow and prone to failure. It's much easier to simply use a single hand to guide the long gun down as the dominant hand secures the pistol and begins its movement out to the threat.

Having the sling attached to your body always helps to maintain control... [when you] become involved in a weapon retention situation...

1) All transitions are slow and prone to failure until you drill them till they're not... Slow and prone to failure is really a matter of degree.

2) This is addressed within the 2-point sling method. Let them have your weapon, draw your secondary, shoot them, pick up your rifle and carry on.

Bottom line is no method is perfect... Let situation dictate.

[dctag]

Slow and prone to failure in this case is not really a matter of degree. If you throw your gun behind you and it hits a cabinet and consequently it hits you as it swings back to where it started is a complete failure.

It is also a complete failure if the muzzle sweeps a good guy, or if while hitting the aforementioned cabinet the safety is taken off and the gun snags on something pulling the trigger an shooting you in the back or just launching a round into the unknown.

Slow? Give me 2 people who are new to carbines and within 10 minutes I can have them bringing the gun down with one hand and coming back up with a pistol faster than if I have them throw the gun behind them slung or not. Give me 2 highly trained people, one in the art of throwing the gun behind them and the other in the art of bringing the gun down as they grab their pistol, and once again the "regular sling" method will win. NCPatrolAR is right when he says it is an economy of motion thing. Just like the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, the fastest transition will be from the least movement. Moving the hands down and then bringing them back up is less movement then throwing the hand back and up and then bringing them down to grab the pistol.

While anything can be failed the magnitude of failure that is possible is far worse when throwing the slung or unslung gun behind your back than it is with a slung carbine with either a 3, 2, or 1 point sling.

I am having a hard time finding 1 let alone multiple scenarios where it is better to huck your gun behind you than it is to bring it down when transitioning.

As to letting someone have my gun? If they somehow grab it I want them close so I can shoot, stab, or punch them a lot so I can get my gun back. I dont want them to have the chance to run around the corner with it in order to later use it against me. I dont let most of my friends borrow my guns, I am definitely not going to let some bad guy have it hoping to get it back. If he wants to jump out from somewhere and grab it then he just elected himself to be punched, stabbed, and/or shot.....alot. Giving up a gun to me is a no go.

I would recommend to go ask one of the SME's in the "Ask the SME" section the question as to the proper method or methods of transitioning. All 4 of them have a decent* amount of time shooting in actual combat situations and even more time in practice trying to figure out why, when, and how to do something.

*decent=roughly a gazillion hours

[amadeus76]

Slow and prone to failure in this case is not really a matter of degree. If you throw your gun behind you and it hits a cabinet and consequently it hits you as it swings back to where it started is a complete failure.

It is also a complete failure if the muzzle sweeps a good guy, or if while hitting the aforementioned cabinet the safety is taken off and the gun snags on something pulling the trigger an shooting you in the back or just launching a round into the unknown.

Slow? Give me 2 people who are new to carbines and within 10 minutes I can have them bringing the gun down with one hand and coming back up with a pistol faster than if I have them throw the gun behind them slung or not. Give me 2 highly trained people, one in the art of throwing the gun behind them and the other in the art of bringing the gun down as they grab their pistol, and once again the "regular sling" method will win. NCPatrolAR is right when he says it is an economy of motion thing. Just like the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, the fastest transition will be from the least movement. Moving the hands down and then bringing them back up is less movement then throwing the hand back and up and then bringing them down to grab the pistol.

While anything can be failed the magnitude of failure that is possible is far worse when throwing the slung or unslung gun behind your back than it is with a slung carbine with either a 3, 2, or 1 point sling.

I am having a hard time finding 1 let alone multiple scenarios where it is better to huck your gun behind you than it is to bring it down when transitioning.

As to letting someone have my gun? If they somehow grab it I want them close so I can shoot, stab, or punch them a lot so I can get my gun back. I dont want them to have the chance to run around the corner with it in order to later use it against me. I dont let most of my friends borrow my guns, I am definitely not going to let some bad guy have it hoping to get it back. If he wants to jump out from somewhere and grab it then he just elected himself to be punched, stabbed, and/or shot.....alot. Giving up a gun to me is a no go.

I would recommend to go ask one of the SME's in the "Ask the SME" section the question as to the proper method or methods of transitioning. All 4 of them have a decent* amount of time shooting in actual combat situations and even more time in practice trying to figure out why, when, and how to do something.

*decent=roughly a gazillion hours

I think you missed the part where I said, 'situation dictates'...

[Magic_Salad0892]

I think you missed the part where I said, 'situation dictates'...

What situation exists where it is better to not have your gun slung around your body, requiring you to either

A: Dump your gun completely.

B: Throw your gun over your body, which would slow you down in getting to it later.

When you could just:

A: Drop gun, grab pistol. Grab rifle later. It'll always be there.

[BufordTJustice]

I'll weigh in from an LEO patrol deputy's perspective. I use the Vickers VCAS padded sling on my AR and i use his method of employment. I find that it allows instant transitions to my duty handgun and i can just let go when I need to go hands on. I've received a little bit of instruction for krav maga weapon retention and 'weapon snatching'. And when I say a little bit, i mean very little; I'm not an expert by any means.

Even with my limited experience, i can take the muzzle of your gun, point it in a safe direction, and strangle you with your neck loop....or throw you to the ground and drag you along with it. I'm not dogging anybody for using this technique. I'm just saying that i don't see the downsides to it be taught.

EDIT: to be clear, a three quarter turn of the weapon and you are no longer wearing a sling....you're wearing a noose.

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