Rethinking Sling Techniques

[amadeus76]

What situation exists where it is better to not have your gun slung around your body, requiring you to either

A: Dump your gun completely.

B: Throw your gun over your body, which would slow you down in getting to it later.

When you could just:

A: Drop gun, grab pistol. Grab rifle later. It'll always be there.

1) If you are in a struggle for your rifle and it is attached to your body, the enemy can use your weapon as a control point to swing you around (think head control in a Muay Thai clinch). If it is not attached to your body and you release your rifle (preferably shoving the bad guy away in the process) there is no reason you should not be able to transition to your pistol and eleminate the bad guy before he has a chance to gain positive control and turn your rifle on you. If you can't do this, you might want to drill your transitions more.

2) I would assume that the reason you slung your rifle and transitioned to your pistol in the first place is because you went dry. Reloading takes time too. Beyond that, it takes me about a split second longer to unsling my rifle from over my back as it does to grab it from hanging position. Of course I've also drilled gaining positive control form a slung position, so...

As I said... Situation dictates. Do I go unslung and use the techniques mentioned above in all situations? No. Do I never use the standard accepted techniques? No, again. Situation dictates.

[NCPatrolAR]

1) All transitions are slow and prone to failure until you drill them till they're not... Slow and prone to failure is really a matter of degree.

As I pointed out before; dumping the gun over your head is going to be slower simply due to body mechanics. Its going to be slower to move the gun over your head, route your arm through the open loop and then dump it. A while the times between the two can be narrowed, the dump, IME, is always going to be slower and that time can make or break the overall situation you are finding yourself in.

When it comes to failure; yes, both methods can "fail". However, when I fail with the "non dump" method, I still have control of the gun. At most I might get struck in the groin by the weapon. If I fail with the dump, I'm either going to have the gun bound up high on my back or worse; I overshoot the shoulder and end up with the loop on the outside of both arms with the long gun headed to the ground.

2) This is addressed within the 2-point sling method. Let them have your weapon, draw your secondary, shoot them, pick up your rifle and carry on.

Certainly possible, but some major drawbacks there.

1) If I let the person have my long gun and I start to put rounds on him; I stand a chance of striking my own firearm possibly putting it out of commission.

2). If I let control of the long gun and shoot the guy to the ground; momentum is slowed or lost because I now have to spend time recovering my long gun, checking to make sure its ready go, and then pushing on with the mission.

Let situation dictate.

True. For me, about the only time I can see not having the sling around your body is when I'm in a car. However, once I exit the car, I'm looking to get the sling over my shoulder ASAP.

[NCPatrolAR]

When it comes to the "I have control of your body if you're wearing a sling" comments, I find most of those technqiues work only when they are used on a non-resisting opponent.


While the sling wrapped around the body has the potential to give you more control of a person, it has to be recognized that the control isnt even close to being the same as a Thai clinch since the weapon (control point) isnt tight against the body and your trying to move his torso versus his neck .

Also, if the long gun user is to be put on his back, the fight isnt over at that point. Plus; if you are on your back you still have control of your long gun so it cant be used against you (unless they try to press it into your neck as a choke attempt)

[BTL BRN]

True. For me, about the only time I can see not having the sling around your body is when I'm in a car. However, once I exit the car, I'm looking to get the sling over my shoulder ASAP.

What about in a CQB environment? Or more specifically in a home defense situation. I had considered ditching a sling all-together on my HD carbine, but thought the better of it seeing as how I have little ones in the house and might need both hands free at some point. However, the room clearing techniques I have been taught require rapid shoulder transitions, and not having the sling around one's body in a situation like that seems very advantageous.

Thank you for everyone's responses so far, I do appreciate much of the information shared in this thread.

[Jippo]

It takes longer to dump the gun over your head from a pure economy of motion perspective
...

Its slower to bring the gun back into action when it is behind your back versus in front of your body. Again; economy of motion

My point as well. And as the series of pictures show, firing is only possible from the hip with point shooting unless the firing arm is pulled back out of the sling. Sling isn't long enough for firing from the shoulder with this style at least.

I think you missed the part where I said, 'situation dictates'...

I am a firm believer in Hick's law. According to it every option you have is going to slow you down. I always look for the simplest techniques that get the job done in 99% of the cases. I do it in order to not have to choose between two that accomplish the same thing in two different ways. That slows down my OODA-loop.

That said, I also try to minimise the amount of skills I need to train to train the remaining ones more effectively.

I'll weigh in from an LEO patrol deputy's perspective. I use the Vickers VCAS padded sling on my AR and i use his method of employment. I find that it allows instant transitions to my duty handgun and i can just let go when I need to go hands on. I've received a little bit of instruction for krav maga weapon retention and 'weapon snatching'. And when I say a little bit, i mean very little; I'm not an expert by any means.

Even with my limited experience, i can take the muzzle of your gun, point it in a safe direction, and strangle you with your neck loop....or throw you to the ground and drag you along with it. I'm not dogging anybody for using this technique. I'm just saying that i don't see the downsides to it be taught.

I think this is a great point. I'm on the same level of Maga as you, I suppose, but from the military side. With that in mind I have few rules I think help with the issue that you mentioned.

1. Never let him that close. (Rifle grabbing is too easy!)
2. If you really have to get that close have a friend or many pointing a gun at the guy you have to get close to.
3. If both of the above fail beat the guy with the rifle first, don't let him get the upper hand in the first place.
4. If all of the above fail kick the nuts, bite the face, sitick your fingers to his eyes, etc...

I believe that the approach would be somewhat different in the LE side and you would have to take somehwat more risks with people/assailants to begin with.

On my personal vest I use this TAG single point sling which I think is really the best thing I could find. I can fire from both sides, even strike with the gun a bit, and I can carry the gun in the front- or backside (because the sling is fixed at the top of my shoulder). Best thing is I can quickly release the rifle clean from the sling which I like to do a lot especially in close quarters.

[NCPatrolAR]

What about in a CQB environment?

Most certainly. I wouldnt think of going into a structure without the weapon sling attached to me.

Or more specifically in a home defense situation.

There's some that subscribe to ditching the sling for home defense use. However they are missing out on the concept of what do they do should they be limited to the use of one limb (by carrying escorting a person/child, injury, etc).

However, the room clearing techniques I have been taught require rapid shoulder transitions, and not having the sling around one's body in a situation like that seems very advantageous.

If your sling is set up properly you can switch shoulders at will. Also, some people get to the point where they are switching shoulders excessively and would be better served by keeping it on one side of their body.

[amadeus76]

In the end, we're going to disagree and that's ok. Bottom line is 'dumping my rifle' and the transitions entailed with it have served me well, as have the standard methods you endorse... Neither method has gotten me killed yet.

But who knows... I've got another 7 or so months this rotation to be proven wrong.

[Jippo]

I wouldn't read too much into it. It is all a bit snobbish to argue about styles and fractions of a second, if it works for you it works for you. There is no arguing over that IMHO.

Don't they say: "Everything that you do can get you killed, including doing nothing."

[Arctic1]

A few observations.

I would like to start with a few videos where highly competent shooters demonstrate transitions:

Jason Falla:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IEOtvupVnE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As5IISC4d20

Kyle Lamb:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcybVuORN5A

The whole point of a sling is to maintain positive control of the weapon through a wide variety of situations:

-Transitions to a sidearm as an immediate action drill at close range
-Being wounded/struck in body armor (in case you fall over)
-Going hands on with threats/suspects
-Climbing over a wall or through a window/entry point
-Throwing grenades in MOUT/CQB
-Weapons retention struggle

If we look at the first of these points, transitions as an immediate action drill, the situation is that you are either 1) out of ammo or 2) your gun has malfunctioned, and the fastest option to continue to engage and neutralize the threat is to transition to your pistol. The end state is reached when threat is neutralized, you are behind cover if possible and your primary is back up in the fight.

If you choose to drop your weapon as part of your transition drill, you are setting yourself up for failure. Sure, it might work one or two times, but the risk of causing major problems is high. You might have to move to cover while transitioning, and thus removing yourself from your rifle. The threat can very likely be able to affect you with his fire where your weapon is now lying on the ground.

If you are using a method where you let the bad guy gain complete control over your weapon during a weapons retention struggle, you are also setting yourself up for failure. Say you manage to transition and engage the threat with your pistol; what if the bad guy manages to escape around a corner, or into another room with your weapon? Then you are stuck with your pistol.

As for the possibility of a threat using a slung weapon to spin you around or force you to the ground during a struggle.....? Not very likely, if the person who carries the rifle actually resists and puts up a fight. Keep one hand on the rifle, draw your pistol and shoot.

If you need to transition shoulders, that is something that needs to be practiced in order to become a smooth action. It is, in my opinion, an application that does not require the speed that a transtion to pistol requires.

Bottom line, I recommend using a proper technique where the sling is worn in a manner that ensures that the user will maintain control of his weapon in most situations. Never willingly give up control of your weapon.

The only application where I have not had my weapon slung has been during platoon and squad live fire training in a rural setting, when throwing a grenade at a prepared position. My rationale for that is that I have support by fire, and I need a positive effect from my grenade so accuracy is key. I don't remove my weapon every time, but when the cover allows it.

[AKDoug]

In those videos you will notice that Kyle has his support arm inside the sling and Jason merely has his sling over his neck.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of each technique?