Rethinking Sling Techniques

[amadeus76]

If you are using a method where you let the bad guy gain complete control over your weapon during a weapons retention struggle, you are also setting yourself up for failure. Say you manage to transition and engage the threat with your pistol; what if the bad guy manages to escape around a corner, or into another room with your weapon? Then you are stuck with your pistol.

Jesus Christ... Look, I can accept and respect alot of the arguments against a non-attached method. But not this one. It's a straw man argument and if you are not capable of transitioning to your sidearm and eliminating the threat before they 'run around a corner into another room', you're in the wrong line of work in the first place.

[drck1000]

In those videos you will notice that Kyle has his support arm inside the sling and Jason merely has his sling over his neck.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of each technique?

AKDoug - On the scenic drive up to Talkeetna to visit you guys for lunch, I was discussing some of the short comings that I found in my sling selection during the class and also discussed his method for utilization of the sling and this preferences for sling type and features.

Perhaps this would be a good question to ask of Jason in the SME forum so that a wider range of viewers can benefit from it.

Feel free to PM me and I can share what I recall from that discussion, but it's probably best coming from the SME himself.

[Arctic1]

@amadeus76:

First off, it's not a "straw man" argument. A straw man is basically creating an argument where there is none, arguing against a position the other participant in the discussion has not taken up. The correct term for your disagreement would be to state that my argument is thin, or that I am grasping at straws.

Second, pistols are generally poor incapacitators, and at the range we are discussing it is very possible that the person grabbing your gun can in fact escape or move before you score hits that incapacitate him. If it happens just at the moment of entry, for example.

As an example, look at this video from about 14:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA

Granted, the shooter is not particularly well trained, but things happen quickly.

[Nippy]

The Gabe Suarez school, right...?

Is this where the technique the OP is referring to is taught?

It's a straw man argument

I think you mean slippery slope not straw man.

[Axcelea]

I think there is some over reaching when saying an attached weapon can be used as a weapon against you in a physical fight.

How easy is it to choke someone with their sling? Considering its not wrapped around their neck (runs along one side with the other side being blocked by the torso and half the neck is not an effective choke) you would have to wrap it around them and if your talking about such man handling then it doesn't matter the starting point (attached or not) all that much.

Controlling them? As NC said, mostly if they allow it. They still won't have it taken away, can transition to a secondary to end the tug of war more safely, or stale mate which although not a good result is better then getting a weapon taken and having it turned against you.

Now if it is not attached then if its taken then its easier to turn around and fire, used as a bludgeon weapon, run off with, used to press against the throat, sling is completely free to be used as a choking device, etc.

I would much rather get in a physical fight with someone who doesn't have the gun attached then does. With the only exception that really sticks out being they can use it as a bludgeon, choking, etc weapon as well but the flow of this discussion seems to be when that control is lost.

[G_M]

Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it; I also value perspective from someone outside the US.

Without being argumentative, let me address the following points you made in red, as we were taught.



Again, thanks for your response and for taking the time to post pictures; and I do agree about Russian manipulations and the value placed on soldiers/etc.

I am not familiar with the throw over the shoulder technique but I found this. It seems consistent with the OP's description.

a) Sling hangs freely
b) Throw firearm over the shoulder to transition to pistol.

That technique without a doubt is SLOWER than the conventional technique. It isn't a practice thing either, your right hand physically travels almost twice the distance in order to get to the secondary.

If the objective is to present your secondary as fast as possible then I think that needs to remain at the forefront of the technique you choose.

The above technique doesn't seem optimal to get your gun back up and running either since your gun will be across your back with the muzzle on your support side.

If the primary objective is to have the rifle more secure and behind the back. But having speed to your secondary and relative ease to get your primary back in the fight then this method may be worth taking a look at.


I think the main objective of the over the shoulder technique is to find a technique for slinging the gun when you normally don't have it slung. So its not really about slinging technique, its more about do you want to run with a sling or without one.

[SPQR476]

I honestly gave the diving through the sling thing a fair try for giggles, and I can do it quite proficiently, but I found it rather lacking and discarded it. It isn't much slower if you use the support hand to guide the gun and go straight to the secondary with the firing hand, but it's far less likely to be completed successfully under stress or in tight quarters than pretty much any conventional sling method IMHO. If you think otherwise, now try it with a MICH and PVS 15s.

The loose sling also swings to and fro, making shooting from the standing at anything further than conversational distances more difficult, it snags on stuff, is more likely to be dropped/lost in a struggle, blast, or case of injury, and is harder to press into service for support.

With a 2-point around the neck and enough slack, shoulder transitions are unhampered, just dropping the gun makes for a reasonably smooth transition if everything goes to shiite, you can shoot the support arm through for better movement after the transition or to cinch the sling down for 2-handed tasks, etc.

For retention, with the sling around the neck or body, it's physically quite difficult to turn the gun on the wearer, if not impossible, depending on free length, and anyone grabbing sling to control the wearer is likely to be very shortly spitting teeth or receiving a lead supplement from the secondary.

In any case, I'd much rather deal with the sling around me than have letting go of my primary as a going in gameplan.

[amadeus76]

Oh christ... All I ever said was it was a way, not the way. This thread has gotten stupid.

[NCPatrolAR]

Oh christ... All I ever said was it was a way, not the way. This thread has gotten stupid.

You need to recognize not every comment is directed at you. If you feel the thread is now "stupid" you are welcome not to click on it any more.

[BTL BRN]

Oh christ... All I ever said was it was a way, not the way. This thread has gotten stupid.

Sorry you feel that way, and yes you pegged the "school" earlier in the thread.

For me anyway, I am actually very appreciative to hear some well thought out and more importantly BTDT explanation from the contributors to this thread; I have some more training to do!


Oh and ETA - I was in a course where a student shot through their sling, so it certainly can happen!