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Thread: Some useful info on different caliber SBR uppers

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Krammes View Post
    Please STOP writing the ATF for formal answers to this stuff. We are the ones that are going to get screwed in the end when the are forced to make some kind of decision on things which usually contradicts what is on their site.
    No, just the OP, who is now bound to follow the response that they got.

    They started with "Hello, my name is" and the letter responds using the word "you", not "a person" or "one" or "the population at large".

    No, this is a PERSONALLY ADDRESSED letter and does not apply to anyone but the YOU who sent it. Good job, OP, I hope YOU are happy with YOUR restrictions.

  2. #12
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    Sorry I have to disagree. They aren't out to get every gun owner. Instead of believing what I said, go read the court transcripts and see for yourself. He gave the weapon to an 18 year old after the weapon fired more than 1 round per pull of the trigger and he then took it to the range and it did it again, this time while LE personnel where in the area.

    This has nothing to do with rocking the boat. The BATFE clearly states what the standard is. If someone isn't smart enough to understand that then they need to give up their NFA weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    Piss in the right cheerio's and your rifle can grow a FA FCG, too. Who knows? I believe you about THIS guy, but I'd rather just not rock the boat because things happen.



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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Sorry I have to disagree. They aren't out to get every gun owner. Instead of believing what I said, go read the court transcripts and see for yourself. He gave the weapon to an 18 year old after the weapon fired more than 1 round per pull of the trigger and he then took it to the range and it did it again, this time while LE personnel where in the area.

    This has nothing to do with rocking the boat. The BATFE clearly states what the standard is. If someone isn't smart enough to understand that then they need to give up their NFA weapons.
    I understand that THIS CASE was not rocking the boat. The boat can be rocked, however, and stupid verdicts do happen (Mr. Fish, etc.)

  4. #14
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    I didn't say that CASE did. You make it sound as if the BATFE boogey men are plotting to get all gun owners. Instead of arguing back and forth why don't you READ THE STUFF FOR YOURSELF AND MAKE YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT.

    The Harold Fish case was completely different. First off it was a local prosecutor who went after him. Second, self-defense cases are not always 100% cut and dry.

    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    I understand that THIS CASE was not rocking the boat. The boat can be rocked, however, and stupid verdicts do happen (Mr. Fish, etc.)



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  5. #15
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    TRUTH!

    Are we able to get a sticky titled:

    STOP REINVENTING THE WHEEL!

    In that sticky could be the complete (Black and white) NFA laws for all to read.

    Tongue in cheek to the above sticky thread comment because we already have one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    3. People want to reinvent the wheel everyday rather than accept the stuff that is already out there.

    I'd also like to add:

    The information contained in the OP makes it tougher for those getting into the NFA realm. Meaning that; the more bad gouge that's put out means more mistakes and confusion for the people just starting out.

    If I was never referred to m4carbine I'd have never even went the NFA route. The bad information that's out there is mind numbing doom and gloom.

  6. #16
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    I don't want to make this personal, and I understand that there are many, many "opinions" out there when it comes to NFA law (making it difficult to separate fact from fluff); however, this question should have never gone to the ATF.

    A most basic understanding of NFA law -- which is something that you simply MUST have, if you wish to get involved in purchasing "stamped" items -- tells us that the registered lower is what constitues the SBR, and that when it was added to the registry, you informed the ATF that could expect it to normally be configured with a 10.5" 5.56 barrel. You could put a 16" barrel on it, and technically not even have an SBR in that configuration. You could put a different NFA- length barrel on it, change the caliber, or both, and still not run afoul of the law because the lower is approved for use with NFA-length uppers.

    Now, again, in the interest of accurate recordkeeping and effective administration, if any of these changes are to become more or less permanent, than they would like to be notified of that fact with a simple letter. It doesn't change the legal status of the weapon, so you aren't re-registering or re-transferring anything; you're simply keeping them in the loop. In this case, a combination of over-thinking things a bit, and under-researching led to what we might call a simple ATF party foul, but we have to be careful about these, because this is often where some branch office will fire off an ambiguous reply that may or may not seem to be changing existing policy. Definitely want to let sleeping dogs like when we can.

    AC

  7. #17
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    Since the subject has been broached, a few questions for the more enlightend.

    IG, you stated permanent change witha define that. Exactly. What is considered a permanent change on a modular rifle like the ar?

    The form 4 I filled out, I mistakenly put multi in the caliber area, did not read NFA closely enough. I also did not put down overall length because of the differing stocks I will use. Guess what? Had to resend papers, probably six more months of wait. This is my bad of course, but still sucks nonetheless. If I put my acs on it's going to be longer. Longer upper, shorter upper, different caliber,etc,etc... So just keep my head down and hope for the best?

    Then, on top of everything else, I read this thread. I was already confused, now just hoping for the best.

  8. #18
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    To me, it's quite simple and I would guess that we have to default to the dictionary definition;

    PERMANENT- continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change

    So if I maintain control of the original upper and I swap them around on a regular basis as I tend to do and my INTENTION is to always put the original on, then one would think that the change I performed was in fact not permanent.

    As to the change of configuration from the BATFE website: ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA.


    In regards to the upper and additional tax stamp (from the site again with a simple Google search):
    The serialized receiver is recorded for registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR)

    Quote Originally Posted by fixit69 View Post
    Since the subject has been broached, a few questions for the more enlightend.

    IG, you stated permanent change witha define that. Exactly. What is considered a permanent change on a modular rifle like the ar?

    The form 4 I filled out, I mistakenly put multi in the caliber area, did not read NFA closely enough. I also did not put down overall length because of the differing stocks I will use. Guess what? Had to resend papers, probably six more months of wait. This is my bad of course, but still sucks nonetheless. If I put my acs on it's going to be longer. Longer upper, shorter upper, different caliber,etc,etc... So just keep my head down and hope for the best?

    Then, on top of everything else, I read this thread. I was already confused, now just hoping for the best.



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    I don't want to make this personal, and I understand that there are many, many "opinions" out there when it comes to NFA law (making it difficult to separate fact from fluff); however, this question should have never gone to the ATF.

    A most basic understanding of NFA law -- which is something that you simply MUST have, if you wish to get involved in purchasing "stamped" items -- tells us that the registered lower is what constitues the SBR, and that when it was added to the registry, you informed the ATF that could expect it to normally be configured with a 10.5" 5.56 barrel. You could put a 16" barrel on it, and technically not even have an SBR in that configuration. You could put a different NFA- length barrel on it, change the caliber, or both, and still not run afoul of the law because the lower is approved for use with NFA-length uppers.

    Now, again, in the interest of accurate recordkeeping and effective administration, if any of these changes are to become more or less permanent, than they would like to be notified of that fact with a simple letter. It doesn't change the legal status of the weapon, so you aren't re-registering or re-transferring anything; you're simply keeping them in the loop. In this case, a combination of over-thinking things a bit, and under-researching led to what we might call a simple ATF party foul, but we have to be careful about these, because this is often where some branch office will fire off an ambiguous reply that may or may not seem to be changing existing policy. Definitely want to let sleeping dogs like when we can.

    AC
    I read from an industry professional on another forum about someone who was detained, had their rifle taken, and had to spend a ton of money to get things fixed, when they took an SBR'ed lower with a non-NFA length upper through a ban-state.

    Last time I heard about it was when a guy was in a non-NFA friendly state with the SBR bans(Michigan I believe) and he had his Trust built AR15 with him with full size barrel, cops said the barrel looked short, stopped him, looked at the rifle, saw the engravings and asked what they meant, the guy was honest with them they called and NFA Branch said its still a SBR just not in SBR configuration. He ultimately had the charges dropped and took over a yer to get his rifle back from the evidence room. Spent a LOT on lawyers fees. Kinda hard when the NFA Branch says it is a SBR in a non-SBR state, kinda throws the trump out there.
    http://www.silencertalk.com/forum3/v...hp?f=2&t=97160

    All of this stuff hurts my head, I just don't go to states that don't allow stuff like that, but still, it's never black and white, and right and wrong really don't matter as much as people think they do. It's all "What kind of day is the guy who pulls you over/detains you having".
    Last edited by WS6; 10-24-12 at 04:10.

  10. #20
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    Thank you IG and AC. A little clearer on the legal aspect. But it still seems like a bunch of gray legal text and bs.

    I am editing myself for the painfully long rant I just typed. We will leave it at... I am flabbergasted a little more each time I read anything about the NFA and the legal interpretations some departments will make of it.

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