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Thread: What exactly is in the Colt TDP

  1. #51
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    I cant tell them apart.

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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by J8127 View Post
    There was a thread about if there was such a thing as superior to the TDP, and I have to be in the camp that yes there is. I've been using the same M4 the last 5 years and I own a Daniel Defense and it takes about half a second to tell which one is the better weapon. That doesn't mean I don't trust both of them, that doesn't mean they aren't both fantastic, but to say nothing is better than a Colt is asinine.

    The TDP is the benchmark that no rifle less than should be trusted, so Colt sets the standard. Some companies exceed the standard through the same development process that leads to Colt changing the TDP, other cut corners to save money.
    I think its a stretch to say the DD is superior, sure the DD comes better outfitted with accessories from the factory, but i personally would say they are sixes. Both are fantastic guns. Are there improvements to the TDP? I think so, examples are KAC's E3 bolt and IWS lowers, LMT's MRP platform, Vltor's A5 receiver extention, ect.
    Last edited by VIP3R 237; 10-22-12 at 01:22.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstone View Post
    To think that with just a half second observation you can tell that the dd is better than a colt. That is like saying my rock river is just as good as colt or dd. How can you tell without firing which is better? How do you quantify better? A company that tries to meet the standard that colt set does not make them better. DD is a great company making a great product, but to say they are that much better than colt is asinine.

    Could a company make a better m4/AR than colt? You always hear people say blank company is making better m4/AR's than colt. What is better? If a company uses higher grade materials that are structurally superior, but the system can not run more than 20 rounds without malfunctioning. Is it better? Colt is the gold standard, and DD is not a better weapon. They are probably equal, but DD is not so obviously superior you can see it with two weapons side by side.

    I can understand someone liking a company better than another, but to have an emotional attachment where you believe they are far superior to all else without logical reasoning is the epitome of stupidity. If you like your DD more than your colt that is great you should at least say that you like it better, and not that DD is far superior. I like my bcm's more than what colt is offering, but i can not put one next to a colt and know it is superior. Your bias is obvious. Nothing wrong with having a bias one way or another, but your bias is also clouding your judgement.
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  4. #54
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    If folks would take time to research the subject and do a little analysis of the data, they would be able to come up with reasonable conclusions and spare us the wilder speculations.

    I have worked on military aviation contracts. The TDP covers everything a company does to fulfill the contract they have with the .gov. Everything. Changes can be made to the TDP to change how things are done as needed to speed up production or make improvements to quality or for a variety of other reasons. The TDP must be followed or the company will be fined or even lose the contract. If a competitor can get hold of the TDP, they can use that information to great advantage in the next bidding cycle.

    Colt subcontracts many of the parts used to assemble their rifles. Those companies may not get the TDP but they will be given the standards Colt needs them to meet in order to satisfy the .gov. Any company that does get any part of the TDP to manufacture parts for Colt will have to sign a non-disclosure agreement. However, that's not to say the sun-contractors will be forbidden from manufacturing larger lots to be able to sell to other AR makers.

    A good example of this is bolts made from Carpenter Steel. This is a special alloy and is very expensive unless bought in large lots. A small company couldn't buy a small lot of Carpenter steel and make just a few bolts at competitive prices. AR bolts are likely to be made by one company who buys Carpenter steel in large lots and produces bolts for Colt and everyone else. It's more cost effective just to make all the bolts to Colt specs than to make them two or three different ways. (My guess is this is the real reason KAC bolts are not made from carpenter steel.) Colt gets what they need, the rest get sold to other companies and everyone wins because costs are kept low.

    While no one but Colt holds the TDP for the M4 (FN has the rights to the TDP for the M16), Colts subs the work out for various parts. Other companies benefit by being able to buy parts from lots made to Colt specs and Colt benefits by having costs lowered through larger production runs.

    We are seeing the result of this as more makers offer carpenter steel bolts and FN barrels.

    I have no insider information but this is my conclusion from the data I have gleaned on the subject. It may not be 100% spot on, but it makes sense according to what I know and my own experiences working under a TDP. I know there are those on this forum who can correct me if I'm wrong
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post


    Colt subcontracts many of the parts used to assemble their rifles. Those companies may not get the TDP but they will be given the standards Colt needs them to meet in order to satisfy the .gov.

    Colt is allowed to source non-critical parts from outside vendors. These parts are still built to mil-spec.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by J8127 View Post
    There was a thread about if there was such a thing as superior to the TDP, and I have to be in the camp that yes there is. I've been using the same M4 the last 5 years and I own a Daniel Defense and it takes about half a second to tell which one is the better weapon. That doesn't mean I don't trust both of them, that doesn't mean they aren't both fantastic, but to say nothing is better than a Colt is asinine.

    The TDP is the benchmark that no rifle less than should be trusted, so Colt sets the standard. Some companies exceed the standard through the same development process that leads to Colt changing the TDP, other cut corners to save money.
    This is actually true (that companies can exceed what the TDP calls out).

    The question I have is, what are they??? We have to be careful and separate personal choices in gas systems, FCG's, etc and what actually improves the reliability of the weapon.

    I look forward to hearing your answers.



    C4

  7. #57
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    From what I have seen colt does a lot of in house work. They machine most everything themselves. They may buy the raw forgings bu they machine them in house.

    Lowers


    Round bar stock which will make the barrels.


    Machining the bolt carrier.


    Blanks done in house and machine/rifled.



    Bolts.


    I think its safe to say alot of the TDP is in house. When smaller places get carpenter 158 bolts im sure it comes like in the pics, but then they have to build to their own specs not the TDP.
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Colt builds War Horses, not show ponies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    If folks would take time to research the subject and do a little analysis of the data, they would be able to come up with reasonable conclusions and spare us the wilder speculations.

    I have worked on military aviation contracts. The TDP covers everything a company does to fulfill the contract they have with the .gov. Everything. Changes can be made to the TDP to change how things are done as needed to speed up production or make improvements to quality or for a variety of other reasons. The TDP must be followed or the company will be fined or even lose the contract. If a competitor can get hold of the TDP, they can use that information to great advantage in the next bidding cycle.

    Colt subcontracts many of the parts used to assemble their rifles. Those companies may not get the TDP but they will be given the standards Colt needs them to meet in order to satisfy the .gov. Any company that does get any part of the TDP to manufacture parts for Colt will have to sign a non-disclosure agreement. However, that's not to say the sun-contractors will be forbidden from manufacturing larger lots to be able to sell to other AR makers.

    A good example of this is bolts made from Carpenter Steel. This is a special alloy and is very expensive unless bought in large lots. A small company couldn't buy a small lot of Carpenter steel and make just a few bolts at competitive prices. AR bolts are likely to be made by one company who buys Carpenter steel in large lots and produces bolts for Colt and everyone else. It's more cost effective just to make all the bolts to Colt specs than to make them two or three different ways. (My guess is this is the real reason KAC bolts are not made from carpenter steel.) Colt gets what they need, the rest get sold to other companies and everyone wins because costs are kept low.

    While no one but Colt holds the TDP for the M4 (FN has the rights to the TDP for the M16), Colts subs the work out for various parts. Other companies benefit by being able to buy parts from lots made to Colt specs and Colt benefits by having costs lowered through larger production runs.

    We are seeing the result of this as more makers offer carpenter steel bolts and FN barrels.

    I have no insider information but this is my conclusion from the data I have gleaned on the subject. It may not be 100% spot on, but it makes sense according to what I know and my own experiences working under a TDP. I know there are those on this forum who can correct me if I'm wrong
    Thanks for the info, what you say makes sense.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    This is actually true (that companies can exceed what the TDP calls out).

    The question I have is, what are they??? We have to be careful and separate personal choices in gas systems, FCG's, etc and what actually improves the reliability of the weapon.

    I look forward to hearing your answers.

    C4
    -A bolt that doesn't shear lugs in the same spot and reliably crack at the cam pin hole.
    -An adjustable gas system that can compensate for weak ammo and eroded gas port.
    -Slower cyclic rate in general via heavier buffer or revised gas port size to allow for more reliable extraction.
    -Free floated barrel & under barrel accessory monolithic upper receiver.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaykayyy
    And to the guys whining about spending more on training, and relying less on the hardware, you just sound like your [sic] trying to make yourself feel superior.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sry0fcr View Post
    -A bolt that doesn't shear lugs in the same spot and reliably crack at the cam pin hole.
    -An adjustable gas system that can compensate for weak ammo and eroded gas port.
    -Slower cyclic rate in general via heavier buffer or revised gas port size to allow for more reliable extraction.
    -Free floated barrel & under barrel accessory monolithic upper receiver.
    1. Agree.
    2. Would be nice, but does not really make a gun that much more reliable.
    3. Since most M4's are shot ONLY on SA, not really important IMHO.
    4. Happens now (SOCOM orders guns with DD RIS's).

    So really, just the first one directly affects reliability over the long term. Can you list which companies have improved upon the bolt?


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 10-22-12 at 09:58.

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