Narrowing my options fn/winchester

[Anomic]

Im looking for a Longer range rifle to round out my collection. I have my bcm ar15 with an aimpoint pro that is great (for me) to 200yards. I had considered trading out optics to stretch ita effective range; but i think id rather keep it to cqn/short range duty and Get a dedicated rifle for longer range in a better mid range caliber. I have several deer rifles, cheap savages and older remmingtons. I want to start fresh and put some money into a nice reliable setup that wont need a bunch of "upgrades" later to shoot well.

My goal is a real repeatable 1moa gun, with reliable cold clean bore first shot hits. I more concerned with accuracy vs precision. Ive had a few rifles that wuld group very tight, but had point of impact shifts which made the 1" groups useless! Usage would be for defensive use when ranges exceed the ar-15 ideal range; probably use it for some deer hunting as well. Realistice range would be to 400yards is the longest shot on my property.

So the two options im looking at are;
FN Herstal 308 Win. Tactical Sports Rifle/Detachable Box mag
FN75412 Upc818513001595
20" barrel 8.8lbs 935$

Winchester 308 Win Ultimate Shadow 22" Barrel
Model: 535114220 UPC: 048702117374
22" barrel 6.5 lbs 618$

Im leaning towards the fn for the chrome bore, and i found with research it has a better chance of making my accuracy requirements. The winchester is nearly 2 lbs lighter (some of that is the included scope base on the fn), 300$ cheaper and has a 22" tube which i wouldnt mind for a bit extra velocity and to get less muzzle blast.

The extra costs is not a huge concern but 2lbs is alot! Do you think the winchester will meet my accuracy requirements? Besides the chromelined bore is anything else done to the fn to make it more rugged?

I already have a scope i took off a 10fp project from my younger dumber days. That rifle ended up at 12lbs with all my "upgrades" and would shoot an occassional .75" group but im just done with it!!!

The scope is a leupold mk4 3.5-10x40. If i go with the lighter winchester i may trade for a lighter scope like the 2.5-8x36.

[orkan]

You say the goal is defensive?

Boy are you barking up the wrong tree. You are GREATLY underestimating the effective defensive range of an ar15.

A precision bolt action is not a particularly effective defensive weapon in any capacity. If you are defending something... then there are usually multiple targets, and they are almost always moving. In that situation, give me a semi-auto, and lots of loaded magazines.

If chrome bores are so much more accurate than stainless, why aren't benchresters using them?

Ditch the mark 4 and you might get to learn what an ACTUAL good scope feels like.

For deer hunting, a 308 works, but certainly not as well with a shorter barrel. When hunting with a 308, you want a light bullet, like a 150... and to get a flat trajectory you'll need barrel length in order to get the velocity up above 2800fps. Slower than that, and most bullets are just going to pencil through with no knock-down effect at all. A 26" 308 can nearly (nearly) match a 300WM trajectory to 1000yds with the right load. Not quite the payload, but still lethal on deer.

I'd re-eval your position on a few things if I were you. Temper what you think you know with what you've actually proven yourself. Doing the work and gaining a little experience will give you a lot of wisdom.

[Anomic]

I'd re-eval your position on a few things if I were you. Temper what you think you know with what you've actually proven yourself. Doing the work and gaining a little experience will give you a lot of wisdom.

Thats why im asking

I dont need a lecture on deer hunting; am here for info on the defensive aspect. I currently shoot 4 does a year for myself and family. When i was younger and more energetic i used to shoot more. Ive had this property for 20years well over 100 deer shot; about 20 of them with a 308. Not a huge sample but im well aware of how a 150gr core lokt out of a 22" 308 performs.

As far as defensive use the reason im looking towards a bolt gun for my mid-long range is weight and cost.

I have had a m1a, a 12pound 308 and have decided im not interested in a 12lb gun again.

If i can find a quality ar10 capable of repeatable 1moa accuracy that will be under 9lbs for twice what the fn costs (900$) id be interested. Most ive seen end up with 18" barrels weigh over 10-11 lbs scoped and cost 2000$

Obviously the advantage of automatic and large capacity is great but the tradeoff of less accuracy, even shorter barrel, 2-3 lbs, and twice the cost isnt worth it for me.

For me i can think of alot of situations where an accurate cold bore shot that can double or tripple the range of my aimpioint equiped ar could be useful

[Pappabear]

If you are not going to hunt with it, it should not matter about the 12lbs. I would get the FN OVER the Winchester. And I would get a Remmy 700 5R over both. In fact I did.

Good Luck.

[Anomic]

I have a savage 10fp in a choate "sniper stock". I know, i know. I ws only 18 when i decided it was a great idea... The problem is at 12 lbs i just cant use it for anything other than toting to the range to shoot off a bench. I want something i can actually carrynslung (in addition to a pack) and still be able to walk! And to be able to carry at ready (i.e still hunting) without my arms pulling out of their sockets

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Well here is my opinion on your questions.

The rifles are the same, made by the same people, same girl in two different dresses. I would not buy either for the requirements you listed. I would get a Ruger Gunsite scout rifle or a tikka T3 and upgrade the tikka with a detachable box mag. I have the FN in 300 wsm chrome lined bore, nice rifle great shooter every bit as accurate as my barrels from Lilja, blackstar, and brux, the rifle had an accuracy packaged done on it by my Friend Kevin Cram at Monoutre county rifles and is not in a cheep Hoge stock.

The 308 is a good choice, I have taken quite a few deer with it. I shoot big bullets, the 208g AMAX is my go to bullet right now. Its cheep and it kills. You will not get super flat trajectory like you would with the lighter bullets but I'm looking for energy not speed and you are to.

!8" barrel is all you need for what you are planing to do, the length of the barrel is not a factor in your case, bullet selection is. I am on my second Leupold Mk4 I had a fixed 10x when I first got into this stuff, but I sold it off and upgraded to the newer M4 M5 when I figured out mils are easier than moa for me. Its a good optic built in the USA and you cannot beat the customer service.

The 308 bolt gun would not be a lot of guys choice for a defensive weapon but it will work. Obviously it just requires more training time and a mindset wrapped around stand off distance planning. In today's world with so many hi cap weapons around if it came down to suppressing fire against multiply attackers you are better off with the AR.

Re think the accuracy vs precision comment. Precision is better as its repeatable but your really need and want both. Also the "clean cold bore shot" Not a good idea, for instance in one of my long range hunting rigs I have not cleaned the barrel in 300 rounds. I could not and will not expect the rifle to shoot as good as it does with a clean bore. When I was doing my barrel break in on that rifle and I moved to 10 round groups, my 200 yard zero would shift 1 1'2 inch to the right until I had fired 2 rounds. Expect your zero to move plan and adjust for it based on how you employ your weapons system. If its first round hits your after zero for that by waiting 10 min between shots . If you are looking for a zero to use after the barrel is hot zero for that and learn to correct for the first few rounds.

The optic you currently have is nice but to powerful for your intended application. I would look for something in the 1-6 range, I would suggest the Bushnell HDMR or something like that. You can trade your scope in for another used one or a new model on SWFAs sample list. Also if you chose the Ruger XS sights makes a nice extended rail so you can use traditional optics.

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Double post due to recurring data base errors

[Inuvik]

I may be mistaken, but I don't believe the TSR has a chrome-lined bore. The FN SPR line does, and that may be what you are confusing the TSR with. The barrel is hammer forged on the TSR.

http://www.fnhusa.com/l/products/com...series/tsr-xp/

[Mossyrock]

Buy the FN. The stock on the Ultimate Shadow is flexible crap. I bought one soley for the barreled action and dropped it into a Bell and Carlson with an aluminum bedding block.

[Anomic]

I may be mistaken, but I don't believe the TSR has a chrome-lined bore. The FN SPR line does, and that may be what you are confusing the TSR with. The barrel is hammer forged on the TSR.

http://www.fnhusa.com/l/products/com...series/tsr-xp/

Hmm im confused what the extra 300$ for the fn gets you;
A hogue stock
A dbm (not a huge plus for me but ill take it)
A shorter but much heavier barrel 2lbs heavier
The weaver base

Buy the FN. The stock on the Ultimate Shadow is flexible crap. I bought one soley for the barreled action and dropped it into a Bell and Carlson with an aluminum bedding block.

Im thinking i might prefer the winchester and get an aftermarket stock to stay cheaper and lighter than the fn...