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Thread: Seeking 870 SBS advice. 12-14"

  1. #11
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    Sorry to say this, but your post makes little sense at all. A trust, LLC or Corporation is not an end run around CLEO signatures.

    Also using an NFA weapon has zero ramifications in a self defense scenario. A good legal shoot is a good shoot. A bad one is a bad one. Please don't cite the outdated McFadden case either.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriumphRat675 View Post
    Don't mean to derail your thread, but I have in my possession both a 16" AR and an 11.5" AR, am familiar with the NFA, the CFR, and the misconceptions and foul-ups that are common among people trying to do an end-run around their local CLEO with trusts, LLC's, and etc., with or without the advice of counsel.

    My considered opinion is that for the vast majority of ordinary citizens, unless they live in an enlightened locale where they can own an NFA item personally, whatever purported performance advantage NFA firearms provide over and above non-NFA firearms is not worth the administrative hassle or potential criminal consequences, to the extent that I advise clients against doing it. NFA toys are fun to have and definitely make you the cool guy at the range, but I don't see their benefits exceeding their actual and potential cost.

    That is my opinion only and YMMV.



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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    Sorry to say this, but your post makes little sense at all. A trust, LLC or Corporation is not an end run around CLEO signatures.
    Understand that I am using the phrase "end run" in a practical sense and not in a legal one - I should have made that clear. If people could individually purchase NFA items without having to get a CLEO signature, I think most would rather do that instead of setting up a trust. Most people I've talked to go the trust route to avoid having to bother with the CLEO signature or because their CLEO won't sign off on their application, etc. So in a practical sense, my statement is correct.

    It's true that a trust has other benefits which have been hashed to death around here, chiefly flexibility and the ability of more than one person to use the NFA firearm, but it is also less convenient to set up and imposes fiduciary duties and other obligations on the trustee that most people ignore.

    Your "zero ramifications" statement could not be more wrong.

    Some shoots are good and some are bad. Shoot a guy kicking down your front door with a shotgun in hand, screaming that he's going to kill your whole family, all captured on tape? Good. Shoot a guy in a shopping mall for no reason? Bad. The gun you use doesn't matter all that much in those cases.

    Where the gun you use can matter - and I know that it can matter because I have sat in the courtroom in rural Texas watching a prosecutor argue to a jury that the defendant's use of a AR in a self-defense shooting is evidence of bad motive - is when the shoot isn't really good or bad but is in a grey area in between. Guess what? There are lots of grey zone shoots. And if you get arrested and prosecuted for one, a prosecutor absolutely can argue that your tarted-up, silenced SBR is some evidence of bad motive on your part, and the jury can believe that, and that might make all the difference in the world to you.

    If you do not believe me, you should look into it. Suzy Soccermom on your jury is not a member of this forum and doesn't like guns at all, let alone scary SBR's.

  3. #13
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    I have an 870 SBS. I originally used the factory 18" barrel cut down to 12.5", but it now has a factory 14.5" barrel and a 1-round extension on it, the tradeoff vs. length is worth it to get the extra round. In fact if I had a do-over I wouldn't form 1 it again and just save the $200.

  4. #14
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    I've got a 870 sbs as well. I can't really tell much difference in blast/noise from when it was 18" and after it was cut down to 12.5". As far as usefulness, I'm just a civilian, and to be honest this was more of a range toy for me. It does "point" better than when it was 18". The barrel is cut even with the magazine tbue endcap, and I had a Vangcomp front sight installed.

    Also, since you mentioned ribs, there's one guy (username luckyguy1) in the shotgun pic thread that has a 14" with the barrel rib and Scattergun/Wilson sights that I think is pretty slick. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=535&page=42 It's about midway down page 42.

  5. #15
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    1) Regarding the OP's question: I can't comment on bbls shorter than 14". Our work guns are 14" 870's and they are plenty maneuverable in rooms/vehicles. As was mentioned, I'd rather have an extra shell in the tube than a shorter bbl. We shoot out to 50 yards with slugs and even the people who only shoot when forced to for quals easily make their hits.

    I've long wanted a 14" Mossy 590A1 or Benelli M4 but they never seem to make it to the top of my want list. Given the known effectiveness of carbines I probably won't get any more shotties unless I win the lottery.

    The only exception for me is the Serbu AOW. I'd love to have one to sit in my lap when doing surveillance in "sporty" neighborhoods. Plus the stamp is only $5. But again, for me there are lots of other things I'd buy ahead of it.

    2) Regarding the legal malarkey (that seems to creep into threads more often than it should): If your weapon is legally owned then I personally wouldn't give it a second thought. If you did have to face a bleeding heart/commie prosecutor, make sure to point out all the LE agencies who use short bbl carbines and shotties daily. If you're that concerned about it - maybe buy a replica of what your local or state PD uses.

    The CLEO signature is a non-issue now since ATF did away with the requirement. It was only a side benefit to me using a trust anyway. I chose a trust because it allows trustees (think spouse, kids who are of age, siblings, etc.) to use the NFA items without me being present. It also affords them the ability to legally possess them if I meet an untimely end.

    The same "legal" arguments can be made for painting our guns. I will not let an internet attorney scare me away from the actual law. YMMV.

    ETA: Looks like I jumped the gun. ATF has not yet killed the CLEO signature requirement.
    Last edited by El Cid; 11-02-12 at 17:06.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    The same "legal" arguments can be made for painting our guns. I will not let an internet attorney scare me away from the actual law. YMMV.
    I have some experience as an attorney on both the civil and criminal side of things and have personally seen the type of firearm used become an issue in a criminal prosecution. You can choose to ignore the possibility that it will later be an issue or not, but the possibility remains.

    OP, apologies for muddying up your thread.
    Last edited by TriumphRat675; 10-31-12 at 15:20. Reason: For clarity and professionalism.

  7. #17
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    Never mind, don't want to derail the OP's thread any further.
    Last edited by khc3; 10-31-12 at 15:10.

  8. #18
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    I would love to hear more about this case. All of my weapons are legally owned and I am not afraid of the so called "evil firearm" bogey man. Additionally in Arizona it is very difficult to be charged if you claim self defense. This was done by our legislature after the Harold Fish incident.

    The link you referred me to was most based upon studies conducted in the mid to late 90's and attitudes have changed since then. Any competent lawyer could pick apart any such demonization of his client with a little effort.



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

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  9. #19
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    Go start another thread about legal bs guys.

    As to the topic I started, I think what I'll do is the +1 with the barrel cut back just under the end of that tube. So, a 13.25" or so 870 with the +1. That seems the best of both worlds.

    If I find I need something shorter there is always the 10" barrel, MCS pump/tube assembly and a birds head grip

    I think the 13-14" will work fine. Also, thanks for the pic of the gun with the rib. I love it. That's the plan currently a rib with a fiber on it, no rear sight. If I need something better than that it'll be a mini red dot.

  10. #20
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    Yea I love that guy's sbs. I thought about doing that but I didn't want to buy a new barrel and quote from my gunsmith to do that was a bit more. Good luck with your project!

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