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Thread: Is the RRA CAR or Mid-length really that bad?

  1. #41
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    I'd like to address a question asked by the OP earlier in the thread.

    Why BCM or Colt?

    The short answer is because they are "known good" weapons. Even a weapon that has been beat to death ,round count wise, will LAST LONGER and BE MORE RELIABLE ... IF... and this is a big if.. it's made by one of those companies.

    Are they the best? That's a matter of a opinion and "assitude". IE, everyone has their own and it's theirs by damnit!

    There are a ton of companies out there that produce "plinker grade" AR's There is a much shorter list of companies that make weapons that you can trust with your life...

    BCM and Colt are just two.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    The rifle length uses a larger port size which allows the system to pressurize faster. Since the system pressurizes faster, combined with a longer distance to travel, isn't it possible that the cyclic rate of a rifle length would be the same as the carbine or the middy?

    No, because the dwell time is far less in proportion to the volume of gas being sent through the tube. In addition, the gas being tapped at a rifle gas port is going to be at a lower pressure than at the CAR position.

    The gas port regulates flow. The smaller port of the carbine system reduces the volume per second* the gases flow into the system. That means the volume flow of higher pressure gas (which is denser) will be about the same as the volume flow through the larger rifle port with it's lower pressure gas. This regulates cyclic rate. When the cyclic rate is kept within the specified range, stress on the BCG should be the same as the acceleration rate of the BCG will be about the same.

    *Gas volume varies with pressure. One pound of air takes up less volume at 25,000 psi than it does at 15,000 psi. What the gas port of the AR really does is ensure the correct mass of gas at the right pressure is tapped into the system at the proper rate for the pressure being tapped.

    I am not sure what you mean by the dwell time being less in proportion to the volume of the gas being sent through the tube.

    I do think that the carbine system, due to tapping gases at a higher pressure point, is less forgiving, that the gas port diameter must be more precise for consistent operation. I also accept that my conclusions are suppositions until data can be collected and analyzed. However, my suppositions are based on the application of physics. That's why I'd like to see the math (which I admit to being wholly inadequate to apply) and/or actual collected data to analyze in order to test those conclusions
    We're gonna have to agree to disagree, since we've thread-drifted like a mother on this one.

    Dwell time, or dwell length, is the length of barrel between the gas port and the muzzle. In a rifle gas system, there is only ~6 or ~7 inches in front of the gas port, as opposed to ~13 to ~14 between the gas port and the cartridge (depending on if measurements starts at breachface of beginning of rifle lands).

    This is roughly the same percentage of barrel in front of the GP and barrel between the GP and the muzzle as a 14.5" middy setup.

    A 16" carbine gas gun actually has more barrel between the GP and the muzzle than it does between the cartridge and the GP. This means that the systems will stay pressurized FAR longer than a middy or a rifle system.

    As far as port pressure not playing a huge role...just look at gas port erosion rates on carbine gas guns as opposed to middy or rifle gas guns (where it's virtually a non-issue even when it does eventually happen).

    Also a symptom of more violent operation during extraction is that the CAR gas system requires a much thicker and stronger extractor spring and insert (and sometimes a viton o-ring as well). Even with Colt's recent change to the copper-washed extractor setup, it's necessary on the CAR gas system but optional on the rifle system. I can run the standard (skinny) rifle spring with a blue insert on virtually any rifle. Good luck on running the original rifle spring and blue insert even on a quality CAR gas gun (BCM/DD/LMT/Colt). If you can get it to work, it won't work on the CAR system for nearly as long as it will on the rifle system.

    My agency issues M16A1 (no brass deflector) mil-overstock guns to deputies who cannot afford to buy their own carbines. I was issued one for a quarter while waiting for a larue optic mount. The gun had the original gas rings, and original extractor spring. The insert, if there was one, had long since disintegrated. Countless rounds downrange with corresponding erosion at the barrel throat. The gas port is also eroded slightly. Yet it runs like a top on NATO pressure Federal M193 55gr ball. You won't be able to show me a CAR gas gun with the same longevity. It doesn't exist.

  3. #43
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    I am going to put my foot in the water here and give my two cents on what was originally asked. In regards to RRA I have several friends who have them, actually all of them have Entry Tacticals. Most of the guys I know who have them got them around 2003-2004 and got them for around $700 with LE discounts and whatever. So far they have been pleased with their rifles, but then again I shoot more then them and I don't shoot nearly as much as I should or would like to. Of the guys I know who have RRAs two have put a substantial number of rounds through theirs (5K plus), with only one having any issues and even then there have only been a handful of malfunctions and all but one was related to Wolf ammo, the other lone malfunction was a bad GI mag. Also considering the RRA has a horse cock barrel under the handguards I have never really been impressed with their accuracy and never seen them shoot any better then my BCM with comparable ammo, even off the bench with optics I have not really seen one that was so much more accurate then my BCM BFH middy upper on a RRA lower(don't bitch got it for cheap, $80 stripped, and it is before they started putting their current roll mark on it) which has printed 1.5-1.75 or so inch groups at 100 meters with 55gr Hornady Steel match, and that's with an ACOG, mil spec trigger and me as a less then stellar rifle shooter.

    Another comparison I can do here is compare the BCM I put together and my friend's RRA Entry Tactical. My BCM has a RRA lower, Milspec LPK, Miad grip kit, Magpul ACS stock, H buffer, BAD Lever, Magpul flip ups, BCM BFH 16 inch Middy upper with gunfighter CH, magpul MOE fore end, and BCM BCG. All told I have $1,100 in the rifle with irons. My friends RRA out the door when he bought it was I believe $1100 after tax with no irons, and he put another $120 in it for the ACS stock, BAD lever, $40 for Miad grip, and another $100 in a set of BUIS. So let say for comparable set up just externally you are looking at a $300 difference and the BCM is a nicer rifle and still weighs less.

    Also I will say this finally, I don't hate RRA, indeed I have a RRA lower that my BCM upper is mounted on, so I don't hate them, at least not as much as some here do. I think they are better then some options that I see running around out there. But they are not as nice as BCM, DD, Colt as far as a functioning rifle, and even the finish on the RRA lower is not what I would call top of the line, in fact it is rather mediocre, though not as bad as the finish on my Bushmaster. I still prefer the BCM for the money and will likely buy more BCM uppers to finish the other two stripped lowers I have in my safe unless I come across a hot deal on a Colt or DD.

  4. #44
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    I would like to thank each and every one of you who replied to my thread. You have all given me much to think about and look at. I really do want to make an informed decision when it comes to buying an M4 type gun. I want to make sure I get the best product for my money.

    RRA is out. I shouldn't have any trouble finding a Colt or any other of of the others mentioned at Camp Perry. There are always tons of vendors selling AR's and their parts. My plan for the moment is to get an M4. Depending on how the election goes this year. I may be in the market for a few more either in full gun form, or some as stripped lowers.

    I would love to have a dedicated .22 of the same size as a real gun. I wished a long time ago I could have found one along the lines of a 20" H-bar.


    Anyway thanks again all.
    Last edited by Jason D; 10-30-12 at 17:54. Reason: I proof read I swear!

  5. #45
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    Sounds good. Stick around and browse the site. Loads of good info here.

  6. #46
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    I would not buy an a2. I did that once and regretted it later. Buy a flattop with removeable carry handle.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaSierra View Post
    The perceived benefits of the mid-length gas system seem to me to be strictly theoretical.

    If a mid-length floats your boat, whatever - why should I care?
    It isn't a solution to any problems I have with a properly built carbine however...

    Instead or having new shooters getting all wrapped up in this nonsense, it would be much better if they would buy a high quality carbine (Colt would be a great place to start...) and learn to shoot...
    I like them for the longer sight radius, and the longer hand guard. That is not theoretical.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by warlord260 View Post
    I like them for the longer sight radius, and the longer hand guard. That is not theoretical.
    Longer sight radius? OK, at least someone has actually brought up a fact to discuss....
    For me, that an extra two inches of sight radius isn't worth the downsides that I see in a mid-length.... If it is to you, great...


    I guess I see the mid-length as a very "civilian market oriented" item.
    If it were not for the National Firearms Act restrictions regarding barrel length, I highly doubt that the mid-length would have taken off at all.

  9. #49
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    First off, it's a testament to M4C that the whole middy digression involved reasoned argument and not bluster and dick-measuring. (I like this place, even if it's intimidating.)

    If I was in the OP's shoes, and wanted a carbine length AR, but didn't want a flattop, I'd look around for a NOS Colt 6520. I know they're still floating around out there, and it fits his description to a "t."

    Colt quality, carry handle, A2 sights, standard (non-A2, non-M4) barrel profile, light and handy and the original "CAR-15."

    Given the fixed carry handle, it might even be possible to score one at a discount.

  10. #50
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    Unless you are firing hundreds of rounds per weekend in serious competition or a training school, any average AR built by anyone will do for most shooters.

    Despite what the chart says, I have a Colt 20" Sp-1(A1 profile), a Bushmaster XM15E2 20"(A2 Profile), and a Windham Weaponry WW15 (M4gery)

    I've fired hundreds of rounds in each and have yet to find anything wrong with any of them.

    On that note, more attention has been payed to the cosmetic appearance and tight fit between the upper and lower on the WW-15, than on either my Colt or Bushhamster.

    Just check with people who have actually owned or tried various manufacturers products because theres a LOT of gun snobbery out there by folks feel they need to justify their choice in gun.

    Be realistic, if you just want something to blast away with at the range a few times a year, or just want something that beats a sharp pointy stick if SHTF most AR's no matter who made them will do.

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