"Origions of the Thumper", have we moved beyound it's day?

[DMR]

My pee brain has been looking for a long time to find a article that I read years ago in high school. It was part of a line of quastioning I was working on, but now is just for info purposes. Well it seems I have finaly found the string, now I just need to pull it.

The article kicking around was on a .44 Auto Mag Carbine that looked something like the Lynida or Uzi. I could never seem to link into anything until I blundered across the following and a few other threads which sugjest this as the forerunner to such things as the .458 SOCOM and .450 Bushmaster among others, and was first promoted by Jeff Cooper.

From "To Ride, Shoot Straight....."

18" long with stock folder
4.5 pounds unloaded Ghostring sights
Clean trigger
Chambered for .44 AutoMag (claiming a very unrealistic 1800 f/s from a 10" bbl)*
Uses "advanced muzzle braking system" that both unlocks the action and pulls weapon forward thus mitigating recoil
20 rd box mag
Semiauto only

* one might get 1600 f/s as a max load gives 1485 from a 7.5" bbl

Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip

That gave me enough to find this:

slabsides
Senior Member Emeritus

Join Date: May 27, 1999
Location: Maine
Posts: 614
"Thumper" was a Swedish concept...

reviewed by Col. Cooper in the October, 1980 edition of Soldier of Fortune magazine. The gun, which only existed in a couple of prototypes in caliber .221 Fireball and Cooper's preferred caliber of .44 AutoMag, was the design of Bertil Johansson, of Malmo Sweden, an employee of the (then Swedish-based) AimPoint company. The gun had an in-the-grip magazine, folding stock, and came with an 11 or 16" barrel and compensator. It looked a lot like a Terry carbine, and a bit like an Uzi. It was envisioned as a cop piece, hence the nomenclature of the design: PC80, for 'Police Carbine, 1980'. Like the Scout and the 10mm D&D pistol, the Colonel's idea was a hard sell, and the idea died aborning. He tries to resurrect it every few years...most notably in TRSS&STT.

I still have not been able to pull any pictures or further commentary on his orginal. Would a update of the orginal in 10mm in something like the B&T TMP, in SBR form, by a more modern interptation than the variuos AR based designs? I have seen a couple of things about Uzi's being converted to 10mm, but they are all hobbists the best I can tell.

OR have we simply moved past the good Col's ideal with today's tech?

[khc3]

What operating system?

Obviously, something like .44 auto mag in a straight blowback like an UZI would seem problematic.

I am tinkering with a 10mm gas operated 10.5" AR using GG mags. Not sure what purpose it will serve for me other than fun. But first time out shooting it it had no real recoil.

[carbinero]

Great topic: I'd like to hear from those in whose minds this has been resolved!

I know I'm not interested in something which is not military grade, so no old Ruger Deerfields for me. But the concept continues to intrigue!

[S. Galbraith]

OR have we simply moved past the good Col's ideal with today's tech?

At least for military applications, yes. A .44 caliber catridge that uses a round nose bullet would be considered a "niche" weapon. It would be limited to close range engagements, would have reduced hit probabilty, and would lack the ability to use light armor piercing projectiles. Such a carbine would suffer from the same engagement problems that that SMGs suffer, which is why they are going away.

[carbinero]

I recall looking at pics years ago, of the difference on steel plates from 223, 44mag and 10mm. 223 is very effective in comparison. Hunting trends don't favor the 44mag auto project, or there would be more on the market. Doesn't mean 458socom won't have it's afficionados!

[Jake'sDad]

Cooper, though certainly important in the development of defensive handgun techniques, wasn't interested much in wound ballistics past about 1945. He made that very clear to me when I attempted to engage him about it.

Throwing huge chunks of lead out of a light and short carbine still has a certain draw though. Without digging through the safes, I think I have 5 different .44 mag carbines. The Ruger Carbine, in Auto Mag and using a box magazine would have been amusing, especially with today's ammo technology.

[Jake'sDad]

I recall looking at pics years ago, of the difference on steel plates from 223, 44mag and 10mm. 223 is very effective in comparison. Hunting trends don't favor the 44mag auto project, or there would be more on the market.

There's still a lot of .44's out in the woods killing deer every season.

[HackerF15E]

My pee brain

Unless you have something significantly different in mind, don't you mean 'pea brain'?

As in, it's small like a pea?

hehe

[carbinero]

Hmmm, for an auto-loader I'll bet multiples more are killed with ARs in 223. For levers, multiples more with a 30-30.

So the question is not, "Is the thumper useful?" No doubt it's nice to have 10 on tap instead of 4.

But rather, "Has the thumper run its course?"

To which I'd say, looking at the models available (supply) and how many get sold (demand)--versus all of the competitors--yeah, it's pretty much a goner. Too much competition from the 6.8spc, etc.

Thinking of which, I'd far prefer a 6.8spc over a 44mag: plenty of rounds available, and a lot further reach. Technology has trumped the thump.

[Jake'sDad]

Hmmm, for an auto-loader I'll bet multiples more are killed with ARs in 223. For levers, multiples more with a 30-30.

So the question is not, "Is the thumper useful?" No doubt it's nice to have 10 on tap instead of 4.

But rather, "Has the thumper run its course?"

To which I'd say, looking at the models available (supply) and how many get sold (demand)--versus all of the competitors--yeah, it's pretty much a goner. Too much competition from the 6.8spc, etc.

Thinking of which, I'd far prefer a 6.8spc over a 44mag: plenty of rounds available, and a lot further reach. Technology has trumped the thump.

You seem to be looking for an argument that you're not getting.....