Winchester ZQ3313 vs RA556B

[Warp]

Q3313 and RA556B. They are identical rounds, simply with different packaging/presentation/availability, right? I realize the ZQ3313 is reclassified, and what that means.


I ask because I recently ordered 4 (20 round) boxes of the RA556B ($30 each!) and, as I think about it, I am not that comfortable loading my HD/travel/SHTF rifle with something I will have so few rounds downrange with. And my ammo budget is nearly tapped out after a bunch of 193 and 855 for general training.

I need to make another order with SGAmmo anyway so I think I'll get some ZQ3313 ("only" $18/20 rounds) to get more rounds of the load downrange before I load my rifle with it.

Good idea?

Links to specifics in question:

http://www.sgammo.com/product/winche...sp-ammo-ra556b

http://www.sgammo.com/product/winche...t-point-zq3313


ALSO: How does ZQ3314, the Winchester Training load, play into this? At $16/30 rounds, I'm all about using that for training if it will have the same basic POI at various ranges as the RA556B.

http://www.sgammo.com/product/winche...ontract-zq3314

[kenndapp]

i am REALLY sorry to refer you to TOS but..... zq3133 is examined about half way through this thread with a gel shot as well as both the other loads you mentioned.

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.htm...=572798&page=1

how ever if i were you i would just get some ssa 64fr ppt and call it good. about a $1 a round and get no sealant at the primer (this bugs the hell outa me). but what you DO get is an improved (so i was told) version of the nosler bsb as used in zq3133 and other government loads........ 64gr ppt at true 556 pressures and it is very accurate for a soft point. and affordable. so to reiterate.....

what you DONT GET:
-sealant
-cannalure
-rejected or 2nd's ammo

what you DO GET
-accurate and consistent comercial ammo
-one of the better performing soft points at 556 velocities
-affordable






as you can tell i like the load alot. here are a few of our threads on it:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=96860

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=105841

some of the government rejected and contract overuns can be a good score sometimes. but i am always leery of small lots like that showing up on the civi market at $30 a box and sometimes can end up being a 6moa rejected lot or something like that. not to say that is the case with the government loads you are considering now.....just saying it happens.

[Warp]

Yeah, I found that TOS thread when I was Googling away last night.

I have firmly selected the Winchester Ranger load as what will be loaded for potential social work because it is one of the three (also Fed TBBC and the 50gr TSX) recommended as "the best" of the duty 5.56 loads by Doc...and because I have greatly reduced (almost non existent) concerns that the rounds coming out of Ranger boxes might be reclassified or rejected. I'm pretty confident that Ranger rifle ammo will be first rate first run, good shit.

Also, in reading one of your linked threads, some very good points were made in favor of having crimped primers, cannelures, and sealant on ammo for 'real deal' use. Doc is one of the ones who says those things should be present, so that right there rules out the SSA as far as I can tell/am concerned.

I'm specifically wanting to know precisely how the three Winchester loads compare to one another. RA556B, (Z)Q3313, and ZQ3314.

[Warp]

So, is the lead at the tip of the Ranger load (RA556B) supposed to be like this? I've had a lot of bad experiences with terrible QC, and inconsistency, with Ranger pistol ammo, but my understanding was the centerfire rifle ammo from Winchester/Ranger line was still good to go. I don't like how this is inconsistent and some appear lumpy/over flowing. There is a Gold Dot (24455) for comparison. Every single Gold Dot bullet looks exactly the same, and just like the one pictured.

I would think that they are all supposed to look like the one on the far left (or at least that every bullet would look the same). Those others...not exactly confidence inspiring.


Guys? What do you say?

[jstone]

Those look fine. I have 500 of projectiles only if you want me to post a pic i can. Some look perfect with no lead overflow, and others have some over flow. I weighed 50 od them and 28 weighed 60.2 and the other 22 were 60.1. All the cannelures were consistent and what i purchased were seconds. They were more consistent than many of the bullets i purchase as first run from some companies.

[Warp]

Excellent.

I'll test some of them this weekend. (nothing good, just accuracy and function)

[WS6]

What does this round do that the 64gr Gold Dot doesn't do better?

I prefer the Gold Dot because:

Far better exterior ballistics.
Equal or better accuracy (most people report 1-2MOA).
Not rejected over-run, etc.
Plated cases.
$18/20 is in the same price ball-park.
Performs VERY well from an SBR (2500fps from a 10.5" barrel).
Low flash powder (probably a shared attribute with these loads).


Basically, I ask...what's so good about this FBI stuff? The LE223T3 and the FBIT3 I had were both piss poor for accuracy, and didn't look as nice as the Gold Dot, visually (rounds different lengths, bullets lop-sized in the case-necks (FBIt3 reject stuff), blah blah blah). Accuracy was accordingly.

maybe the first-run stuff is better, but what is special about the RA556B? I think people are buying it just because it's 5.56 pressure, but I doubt it's any faster from some guns than the .223 Gold Dot.

[jstone]

What does this round do that the 64gr Gold Dot doesn't do better?

I prefer the Gold Dot because:

Far better exterior ballistics.
Equal or better accuracy (most people report 1-2MOA).
Not rejected over-run, etc.
Plated cases.
$18/20 is in the same price ball-park.
Performs VERY well from an SBR (2500fps from a 10.5" barrel).
Low flash powder (probably a shared attribute with these loads).


Basically, I ask...what's so good about this FBI stuff? The LE223T3 and the FBIT3 I had were both piss poor for accuracy, and didn't look as nice as the Gold Dot, visually (rounds different lengths, bullets lop-sized in the case-necks (FBIt3 reject stuff), blah blah blah). Accuracy was accordingly.

maybe the first-run stuff is better, but what is special about the RA556B? I think people are buying it just because it's 5.56 pressure, but I doubt it's any faster from some guns than the .223 Gold Dot.

I tried to respond, but Im on my phone. It ended up gibberish due to auto correct. So i Will keep this short, and respond when Im at a computer.

I agree with almost everything you stated the rejected lots are garbage. I would rather have gold dots than any of the rejected lots. If it is first run it should have accuracy equal to the gold dots. I believe docgkr list these rounds in his top 3. Top 3 being q3313, fbi556t3, and 50tsx from black hills. All of which are 556 loads so there has to be something about 556 that is more desirable, and performs better.

Rejected lots with the xm, and z precursor are garbage. I Will not shoot rejected ammo. I definitely Will not depend on rejected ammo for sd/hd.

[jstone]

Hey warp i tried to take pics with my phone, but it lacks the right setting. The pics came out ok, but the lead did not show well. I Will dig out the camera later today to get you good pics.

I was also wrong when i said your rounds look like the bullets i have. The one in your pic look like shit compared to what i have, and they are seconds. I Will photograph the labels that came on the bags to. I will also pic through and find the worst offenders i can find. I was just looking over them again and they look almost perfect. Only a very few have a slight bit of lead on the outside. Almost all of them have a perfectly uniform flat meplat. It is actually quite amazing how consistent they are for seconds.

Looking at your pics I can't believe nosler let those out of the factory. When i bought mine they were supposed to be seconds due to cosmetic imperfections. If what i have is seconds what is loaded in those very expensive boxes are thirds.

I know nosler, and winchester work together on the combined technology bullets. It might be possible that winchester makes the bullets for there loads since they work so closely with nosler. That is just a guess. For the money you had to lay out i would shoot one box, and shoot for groups then put some over a chronograph if you have access to one. If they do not perform well i would return them.

If you reload maybe you could use some of your tools to do a quality/consistency check. If the only problem is the excessive lead around the meplat they may function great. At 30 a box they should be sub moa with heat seeking capability.

[WS6]

I tried to respond, but Im on my phone. It ended up gibberish due to auto correct. So i Will keep this short, and respond when Im at a computer.

I agree with almost everything you stated the rejected lots are garbage. I would rather have gold dots than any of the rejected lots. If it is first run it should have accuracy equal to the gold dots. I believe docgkr list these rounds in his top 3. Top 3 being q3313, fbi556t3, and 50tsx from black hills. All of which are 556 loads so there has to be something about 556 that is more desirable, and performs better.

Rejected lots with the xm, and z precursor are garbage. I Will not shoot rejected ammo. I definitely Will not depend on rejected ammo for sd/hd.

64gr Gold Dot leaves a 10.5" carbine at 2500fps. The very most you will see is probably @2600fps in that weight projectile. You may see even 2500 or less from the RA556B or 556FBIT3. Different length barrels give different velocity depending on powder characteristics.

Either way, 50-100fps isn't as important to me as accuracy, consistency, or terminal performance.

The Gold Dot will reliably expand to double it's caliber down to at least 1900fps, and meaningfully well below 1800fps.

A few #'s of energy really don't mean much here or there.

The Gold Dot may leave the barrel slower by a touch (maybe?), but it also will be performing much better down-range because it's far more aerodynamic, and 200 yard expansion from a 10" barrel was part of its design criteria. IMO, it is THE SBR load.

Not to speak for the man, but I am betting that Dr. Roberts would be fine with a magazine of 556FBIT3, RA556B, or 64gr Gold Dot, and wouldn't lose much sleep over any of those choices being in his weapon.

To that end...buy what your weapon likes. Gold Dot seems to work well in nearly everything, though, and I like ATK's powder and the low expansion threshold of the bullet. The plated cases are nice, the very very small amount of exposed lead on the tip is nice, and the primers are all sealed very well. Case-necks, no, but they are crimped very positively, and I doubt even soaking it in Kroil would compromise the powder.

PS. I hate my phone sometimes, too!

Here is for all of you guys who want a pageant queen of a round, I picked a random box of 64gr Gold Dot from my stash and opened it up and took a picture of all 20 rounds, just as they came from the box: