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Thread: Over-gassed 11.5.. cut to 10.5 help at all??

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLarge View Post
    I like the sounds of this....


    5.56/.223 10.3” – 12” Barrel – Carbine Length Gas System:

    “Milspec” plate – .070” – unsuppressed position / .046” – suppressed position
    Extra gas plate – .073” – unsuppressed position / .052” – suppressed position
    That does sound really good.

    On the site it says that it's designed to have a little gas come out of vents in the GB, does that mean that it's a little louder suppressed than a regular gun would be?

    Also, I'd use this plate for an 11.5'' gun...

    5.56/.223 14.5” – 16” Barrel – Carbine Length Gas System:
    ■“Milspec” plate – .0625” – unsuppressed postion / .043” – suppressed position
    Extra gas plate – .067” – unsuppressed position / .046” – suppressed position

    Gives the same suppressed port size as the one for 10.5-12'' guns, but with a smaller unsuppressed port.
    Last edited by Magic_Salad0892; 01-21-13 at 15:27.
    We miss you, AC.
    We miss you, ToddG.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    .046 and .052 sounds a little lean to me. I'm running .060 on an 11.5 and it's almost too smooth.
    I can understand that. I tested with a factory Colt M4 upper, Sprinco White spring, M855 and a Gemtech Halo (sometimes an AWC Raider). Everyone setup may vary and it is hard to please everyone.

    The nice thing is that you can always just drill out the suppressed hole to whatever you want. It's just a simple plate swap.

    Nitriding is important as to prevent the plate from corroding but after about 30 rapid rounds or so I think it is gone. However, the plates still last a long time.
    I've fired over 2,000 rounds out of a 5.45 8" barrel doing 45 round mag dumps. The un-suppressed hole position was drilled to .073" while the gas port was purposely over .090" to see what the erosion would be like.
    While the plate was getting eroded like the profile of a volcano, the top of the hole was still .073" and this was an UN-treated plain steel plate.
    While a set screw type adjustable gas block erodes much faster. Imagine putting a needle in the path of a blow torch. That is what a set screw has to endure. While the design of the Govnah uses actual holes so the whole circumference of the circle has to be eroded.
    See video below of the 5.45 configuration.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKMZT...layer_embedded
    Last edited by MicroMOA; 01-21-13 at 15:52.
    President of MicroMOA and a corporate member of Artisan Arms

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Salad0892 View Post
    That does sound really good.

    On the site it says that it's designed to have a little gas come out of vents in the GB, does that mean that it's a little louder suppressed than a regular gun would be?

    Also, I'd use this plate for an 11.5'' gun...

    5.56/.223 14.5” – 16” Barrel – Carbine Length Gas System:
    ■“Milspec” plate – .0625” – unsuppressed postion / .043” – suppressed position
    Extra gas plate – .067” – unsuppressed position / .046” – suppressed position

    Gives the same suppressed port size as the one for 10.5-12'' guns, but with a smaller unsuppressed port.
    Silencerco/SWR has had two of my blocks for testing since late October but they have been so busy trying to get their new Saker's out for sale that they have not gotten around to getting any SPL testing to prove that there is no increase in sound using the Govnah. I was told by them that they highly doubt it as they have used my block on an LMT MWS .308 but have not actually metered it. Still waiting on them.
    I personally cannot tell any difference and nobody that has witnessed it has either.
    Again Legion Firearms has adopted this block and they have had employees of Surefire evaluate it as well and they have given it the "thumbs up".
    President of MicroMOA and a corporate member of Artisan Arms

  4. #144
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    Since the Govnah uses a gas block setting that you simply "push" side to side, any idea how "secure" it is? What i mean... for a hard use gun where its getting jostled in my vehicle daily, maybe i drop the weapon, etc etc ... what is your opinion on the "slide" potentially moving?
    Last edited by BigLarge; 01-22-13 at 04:06.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroMOA View Post
    Nitriding is important as to prevent the plate from corroding but after about 30 rapid rounds or so I think it is gone.
    That... doesn't sound like nitride treatment.
    We miss you, AC.
    We miss you, ToddG.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLarge View Post
    Since the Govnah uses a gas block setting that you simply "push" side to side, any idea how "secure" it is? What i mean... for a hard use gun where its getting jostled in my vehicle daily, maybe i drop the weapon, etc etc ... what is your opinion on the "slide" potentially moving?
    Good question and one that we have anticipated before releasing the product. We tried several detent pin depths before settling on what we have now. We have done testing where the rifle was thrown on the ground with no change. Now we haven't thrown it out of a helicopter but I would think you would need a complete evaluation of the firearm if you did that.
    Since the plates are modular, we have considered offering other plates with an even deeper detent groove which would force people to move the leg of the spring forward AND push the regulator plate but that would now be a two hand operation and limit rail compatibility. After discussing this with industry professionals, we decided to shelve that unless specifically requested as we have had no issues on the current design.
    President of MicroMOA and a corporate member of Artisan Arms

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Salad0892 View Post
    That... doesn't sound like nitride treatment.
    I did say, "I think". I'm no expert on nitriding I just think there are very few treatments/coatings that can handle the blast coming out that close to the gas port.
    The barrel below was in the white.

    As mentioned on the site, we use: http://www.blacknitride.com/whatis.html for our nitriding. They do nitriding for a lot of manufacturers in the industry.
    Normally, most if not all manufacturers drill the gas port AFTER nitriding as it would be too difficult to time the barrel extentions to the gas port if they drilled the port before nitriding since nitriding stress relieves the part.
    I've been told that they nitrided a barrel after drilling the gas port and saw no erosion. Now I don't know how many rounds they fired, was it full auto? what was the barrel length? Did they EDM the barrel in half to examine it for port erosion? Just looking from the top doesn't tell you anything. I don't know those answers off but I can ask to find out if you really want to know.
    I just know I don't believe anyone so I tested it myself after being told the above and I've seen erosion with a magnifier out of a 8" 5.45 barrel ran in full auto using corrosive Russian steel core doing a mag dump of 30 rounds in full auto. Now how many people are going to be running full auto corrosive 5.45 out of 8" barrel with a suppressor? I would imagine very few. I am always testing for worst case scenario.
    My whole point to mentioning this was:
    (1) it is not that difficult for anyone with a drill press to drill the whole out bigger to their liking as the nitriding isn't that hard to drill through
    (2) as mentioned before, I've fired over 2K of full auto corrosive, abrasive 5.45 steel core through an un-treated plate and while the profile of the hole was like a volcano, the top of the port still stayed at .073" which is what the port was drilled to.
    I still like the nitriding for its corrosion resistance properties for the rest of the regulator plate. If you ever shoot one out then it is super easy to just swap it out for a new plate.
    Last edited by MicroMOA; 01-22-13 at 07:24.
    President of MicroMOA and a corporate member of Artisan Arms

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroMOA View Post
    I did say, "I think". I'm no expert on nitriding I just think there are very few treatments/coatings that can handle the blast coming out that close to the gas port.
    The barrel below was in the white.

    As mentioned on the site, we use: http://www.blacknitride.com/whatis.html for our nitriding. They do nitriding for a lot of manufacturers in the industry.
    Normally, most if not all manufacturers drill the gas port AFTER nitriding as it would be too difficult to time the barrel extentions to the gas port if they drilled the port before nitriding since nitriding stress relieves the part.
    I've been told that they nitrided a barrel after drilling the gas port and saw no erosion. Now I don't know how many rounds they fired, was it full auto? what was the barrel length? Did they EDM the barrel in half to examine it for port erosion? Just looking from the top doesn't tell you anything. I don't know those answers off but I can ask to find out if you really want to know.
    I just know I don't believe anyone so I tested it myself after being told the above and I've seen erosion with a magnifier out of a 8" 5.45 barrel ran in full auto using corrosive Russian steel core doing a mag dump of 30 rounds in full auto. Now how many people are going to be running full auto corrosive 5.45 out of 8" barrel with a suppressor? I would imagine very few. I am always testing for worst case scenario.
    My whole point to mentioning this was:
    (1) it is not that difficult for anyone with a drill press to drill the whole out bigger to their liking as the nitriding isn't that hard to drill through
    (2) as mentioned before, I've fired over 2K of full auto corrosive, abrasive 5.45 steel core through an un-treated plate and while the profile of the hole was like a volcano, the top of the port still stayed at .073" which is what the port was drilled to.
    I still like the nitriding for its corrosion resistance properties for the rest of the regulator plate. If you ever shoot one out then it is super easy to just swap it out for a new plate.
    My point was that there are MFGs who Nitride their entire barrel assembly and the gas ports don't erode any faster than a regular one. (10k rounds or so from the samples I've seen.) So it seems off to me that in only 2k rounds (admittedly full auto suppressed, 8'' pistol length gas, corrosive 5.45x39) would volcano the port. But maybe that is actually normal.

    Have you done any long term testing with these on a 10.5'' 5.56mm gun with M855? (Suppressed, or unsuppressed.)

    I know those are different comparisons (10.5'' CAR gas/8'' pistol gas, 5.56/5.45) but that's just not something I'm used to seeing.

    I'm not trying to shoot you down, I do want it to be known that I do really like the design of your gas block. The 2k number just seemed a little weird to me.
    We miss you, AC.
    We miss you, ToddG.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Salad0892 View Post
    My point was that there are MFGs who Nitride their entire barrel assembly and the gas ports don't erode any faster than a regular one. (10k rounds or so from the samples I've seen.) So it seems off to me that in only 2k rounds (admittedly full auto suppressed, 8'' pistol length gas, corrosive 5.45x39) would volcano the port. But maybe that is actually normal.

    Have you done any long term testing with these on a 10.5'' 5.56mm gun with M855? (Suppressed, or unsuppressed.)

    I know those are different comparisons (10.5'' CAR gas/8'' pistol gas, 5.56/5.45) but that's just not something I'm used to seeing.

    I'm not trying to shoot you down, I do want it to be known that I do really like the design of your gas block. The 2k number just seemed a little weird to me.
    Most of the torture testing was done with the corrosive 5.45 in full auto.
    I use M855 to determine all the port sizes. I also ran several thousands of M855 through a 11.5" barrel.
    I also did the same on a 5.45 11.5" barrel.
    I compared plates fired with 5.56 M855 to plates fired with 5.45 at the same round count intervals and determined that the 5.45 did indeed erode considerably faster than the M855.
    That is when I decided that torture testing in 5.45 would give me better worse case scenario results than M855.

    When I say 'volcano' the port at 2K, this was testing with a 8" 5.45 Bulgarian AK-74 barrel that was headspaced for the AR platform. The gas port wasn't even round. I could easily put the shank of a drill bit over .090" in the port. It was like star shaped. I'll have to take a picture and post it. That barrel should have really just been thrown away. But again, just testing worse case scenario. In this case going from a huge non-round port to the port in the plate.
    I just stopped testing with that barrel at the 2K mark and set it aside as it was really a ridiculous test under conditions I think were excessive.
    I then started testing with the barrel above that turned all the pretty colors. That one has not "volocano'd" the port, more like just rounded the edges.

    I appreciate all the feedback. You guys are all asking the right questions and I'm happy to answer as much as I can.
    Thanks!
    President of MicroMOA and a corporate member of Artisan Arms

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicroMOA View Post
    Most of the torture testing was done with the corrosive 5.45 in full auto.
    I use M855 to determine all the port sizes. I also ran several thousands of M855 through a 11.5" barrel.
    I also did the same on a 5.45 11.5" barrel.
    I compared plates fired with 5.56 M855 to plates fired with 5.45 at the same round count intervals and determined that the 5.45 did indeed erode considerably faster than the M855.
    That is when I decided that torture testing in 5.45 would give me better worse case scenario results than M855.

    When I say 'volcano' the port at 2K, this was testing with a 8" 5.45 Bulgarian AK-74 barrel that was headspaced for the AR platform. The gas port wasn't even round. I could easily put the shank of a drill bit over .090" in the port. It was like star shaped. I'll have to take a picture and post it. That barrel should have really just been thrown away. But again, just testing worse case scenario. In this case going from a huge non-round port to the port in the plate.
    I just stopped testing with that barrel at the 2K mark and set it aside as it was really a ridiculous test under conditions I think were excessive.
    I then started testing with the barrel above that turned all the pretty colors. That one has not "volocano'd" the port, more like just rounded the edges.

    I appreciate all the feedback. You guys are all asking the right questions and I'm happy to answer as much as I can.
    Thanks!
    Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions.

    It would be greatly appreciated though if you could post pictures of what he ports on the plate looked like after the several thousand rounds of M855. With measurements if possible.

    Also, if you don't mind me asking a few more questions:

    we have considered offering other plates with an even deeper detent groove which would force people to move the leg of the spring forward AND push the regulator plate but that would now be a two hand operation and limit rail compatibility.
    Why would this limit rail compatibility? (This actually does seem like a really good design.)

    Also.

    What kind of steel are the gas block, and plates made out of? I must have missed it if you posted it.
    We miss you, AC.
    We miss you, ToddG.

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