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Thread: I know its been asked a million times...SBR + 16" upper = ??

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    I know its been asked a million times...SBR + 16" upper = ??

    I own an SBR AR15.

    If I remove the SBR upper, place a 16" upper on it...can I take the weapon out of state without getting a permission slip if I leave the SBR upper at home?

    I'm 99% sure the answer is yes, but all my searches turned up nonsense about constructive possession and intent and all sorts of jibberish.
    Why do the loudest do the least?

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    According to the ATF, your lower is the sbr. According to the state, the complete rifle is the sbr. If you take the 16" upper, the state won't care and the atf won't know. So...
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    According to the ATF, your lower is the sbr. According to the state, the complete rifle is the sbr. If you take the 16" upper, the state won't care and the atf won't know. So...
    ...the ATF will know if I use it to defend myself.

    Obviously I'm not going to walk into a police station two states away, hand them the rifle, and say "Is this legit?"

    But if the weapon gets fired in self defense, I don't want there to be a "Hey wait a minute, this is in the SBR registry....call a lawyer" moment.
    Why do the loudest do the least?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurodriver View Post
    I own an SBR AR15.

    If I remove the SBR upper, place a 16" upper on it...can I take the weapon out of state without getting a permission slip if I leave the SBR upper at home?

    I'm 99% sure the answer is yes, but all my searches turned up nonsense about constructive possession and intent and all sorts of jibberish.
    According to BATF...while it's on the NFA rolls you can't remove from it's state of residence without a Form 5320. The destination state has to not prohibit NFA firearms. You can, however, file a 5320 that covers you over the period of a year for multiple states. You possibly could rely on law enforcement ignorance but that's your decision. Also your engraving on the lower may be a give away if your the manufacturer.

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    ..... mis-read post
    delete
    Last edited by tb-av; 12-21-12 at 16:20.

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    I hate doing this, without searching, but I am pretty sure someone posted a very clear ATF letter that said the SBR has to be an SBR configuration to be considered an SBR at any given point in time.

    So if you have a 16" upper on it, it's not an SBR in their eyes. If this gets contentious, I might be able to find the letter, but right now I am not interested in running it down.
    "I'm not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The... tactleneck! - Sterling Archer"
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    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important
    than one's fear. The timid presume it is lack of fear that allows the brave to act when the timid do not."

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    Just take one of your other ar's on the trip. Problem solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVAN View Post
    I hate doing this, without searching, but I am pretty sure someone posted a very clear ATF letter that said the SBR has to be an SBR configuration to be considered an SBR at any given point in time.

    So if you have a 16" upper on it, it's not an SBR in their eyes. If this gets contentious, I might be able to find the letter, but right now I am not interested in running it down.
    I thought I had seen posted the FAQ or similar that said the "registered firearm" meaning the lower can't be taken out of state without letter. It's not an SBR but it is still subject to ATF rules in the OP's scenario of using a 16" simply to go out of state.

    I also believe that someone here has told me that possession does not mean "in hand" it means you have continued and normal access like locked in a safe back home.


    ETA:


    ATF Home
    Firearms
    Frequently Asked Questions
    National Firearms Act (NFA) — Short Barreled Rifles and Shotguns



    Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?

    If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.


    Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?

    If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.


    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nati...r-nfa-transfer
    Last edited by tb-av; 12-21-12 at 17:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryr8828 View Post
    Just take one of your other ar's on the trip. Problem solved.
    Ok. Find me a quality AR for sale anywhere. I only own two ARs. Both are SBR'd.


    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVAN View Post
    So if you have a 16" upper on it, it's not an SBR in their eyes. If this gets contentious, I might be able to find the letter, but right now I am not interested in running it down.
    That's exactly what I thought, but see below, I have heard this before as well...meaning if I own "any" of the SBR parts, even back home, its still subject to the ATF classifying it as an SBR.

    The reason I ask:

    As I said above, I only own two ARs both 5.56mm SBRs. I have a buddy with a 16" 300BLK upper for sale. If I buy this upper, put it on one of my lowers, can I bring it out of state with me (and the suppressor, but I know those don't need paperwork)

    Quote Originally Posted by tb-av View Post
    I thought I had seen posted the FAQ or similar that said the "registered firearm" meaning the lower can't be taken out of state without letter. It's not an SBR but it is still subject to ATF rules in the OP's scenario of using a 16" simply to go out of state.

    I also believe that someone here has told me that possession does not mean "in hand" it means you have continued and normal access like locked in a safe back home.

    ...

    Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?

    If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nati...r-nfa-transfer
    Why do the loudest do the least?

  10. #10
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    Have a lawyer define "retains control of"....

    If the SBR upper is in VA, and the lower is in Wyoming wearing the only upper you have a 16.x", are you in compliance?

    I just file 5320.20's and call it good, but again your lawyer needs to define "retains control of"....
    "I'm not saying I invented the turtleneck. But I was the first person to realize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck! The... tactleneck! - Sterling Archer"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important
    than one's fear. The timid presume it is lack of fear that allows the brave to act when the timid do not."

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