Competition handgun

[ToddG]

I swear too God I'm going to puke if I hear one more person say -"do it tactically", "don't worry about winning". Bullshit! The will to win, is the will to win. It doesn't matter if its a gunfight, IDPA, USPSA, UFC, or ****ing checkers.

Do you play by the rules? I see a pretty distinct difference between the will to prevail in combat and the motivation to win a game of checkers.

"Ghosting a stage"- Thats funny. I have "ghosted" every single level, room, and door of every building I've done a hit on. Even if it's just tape on the floor, I've "walked through it".

How does this pertain to the vast majority of scenarios in either game? You can't say there's nothing tactical about the game and then draw a connection to something you do when you have the time, intel, and teammates to make such planning and practice worthwhile.

"Gaming"- I have to laugh at all the tools that talk about "gamers" and how thats why they shoot IDPA as they are shooting there G34, yet carry a Smith Airweight. IF, they even carry at all. It's all BS, ego padding! I always shoot my carry gun. 90% of the time I shoot the exact setup that I carry- shorts, flip-flops, Oakley's, IWB, and mag in the pocket. I still win. Maybe thats because I don't give myself an excuse?

No argument, people who play with one and carry the other are fooling themselves regardless of which game they're playing.

Do you wear concealment when you shoot USPSA?

"Learning bad habits"- if anyone has figured out a way to teach someone how to do something in a 20 second stage, please tell me. I can't hardly seem to get them to do it after two full days of non-stop "learning". You are not going to undue hundreds of hours of "training" at a 1 minute match. But hey, that sounds good when you explain why your at the bottem of the list, doesn't it?.

I agree with that in principle. The silly urban legends like "he waited for the beep and was gunned down" are eye-rollingly stupid.

However, I just recently finished Blink, which is a very interesting study of how people apply their knowledge and experience on a subconscious level. A number of the examples in the book related directly to how we learn things, even things we're not really aware of, and then apply those lessons under stress.

I'm not saying that counters the silly "learning bad habits" crap, but it does give me reason to pause and consider if some of the things we do and see (and get rewarded for) really do have some effect.

If you think your "sharpshooter" ass, that does it "right" is going to beat a "master" that games, in a gunfight, your smoking crack.

Not sure what you meant by putting those terms in quotes. But I know for a fact that there are plenty of Sharpshooter-level shooters with the mindset, tactical experience, and skill to beat the living hell out of many of the Master-class shooters out there. (and I say that as a Master-class IDPA shooter)

Gun handling skill is certainly a worthwhile thing to work on, and competition is a great motivation for many people to improve those skills. But it's just one part of the equation.

One of our local GMs told me a few years ago that he doesn't "worry about tactics because I'll just have to decide which eye to shoot out." He turned down every opportunity we gave him to do a little force on force training.

The only things you get out of "action" competitions, is shooting, manipulating, running, and thinking under the stress of the timer. Thats it! You do not get tactics or even practice tactics at any of them.

Agree with that, as well.

[Gutshot John]

I think one of the better things about competition is that you get to see some excellent shooting. You realize how much you really don't know and how far you really have to go.

It sets the bar much higher.

[Looey]

I swear too God I'm going to puke if I hear one more person say -"do it tactically", "don't worry about winning". Bullshit! The will to win, is the will to win. It doesn't matter if its a gunfight, IDPA, USPSA, UFC, or ****ing checkers.


"Ghosting a stage"- Thats funny. I have "ghosted" every single level, room, and door of every building I've done a hit on. Even if it's just tape on the floor, I've "walked through it".

"Gaming"- I have to laugh at all the tools that talk about "gamers" and how thats why they shoot IDPA as they are shooting there G34, yet carry a Smith Airweight. IF, they even carry at all. It's all BS, ego padding! I always shoot my carry gun. 90% of the time I shoot the exact setup that I carry- shorts, flip-flops, Oakley's, IWB, and mag in the pocket. I still win. Maybe thats because I don't give myself an excuse?


"Learning bad habits"- if anyone has figured out a way to teach someone how to do something in a 20 second stage, please tell me. I can't hardly seem to get them to do it after two full days of non-stop "learning". You are not going to undue hundreds of hours of "training" at a 1 minute match. But hey, that sounds good when you explain why your at the bottem of the list, doesn't it?.

If you think your "sharpshooter" ass, that does it "right" is going to beat a "master" that games, in a gunfight, your smoking crack.



The only things you get out of "action" competitions, is shooting, manipulating, running, and thinking under the stress of the timer. Thats it! You do not get tactics or even practice tactics at any of them.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
couldn't agree with you more, They are both games that have a winner.
If IDPA is so tactical and oriented towards self defense(that is why you shoot from the concealed) than why is it that you have a classification that is shot while not being concealed.
I am tired of the Pissing contest about IDPA, IPSC or three gun. you use this sports to refine and test your fundamentals under self induced stress.
You should practice all disciplines and become familiar with as many techniques as you can, that will make you a better shooter.
just like in martial arts, you need to be a well rounded fighter. you must be good standing up, but be ready to take a fight to the ground if you need too.
win by all means.
if you want to pick up a good sport try them all, i would suggest start with an M&P since you have experience with 1911's. I shoot a glock, but it presents different than a 1911 so you would have to learn a different presentation.
no matter what you choose to shoot go for accuracy not speed.

[blackscot]

A lot of good has already been said here regarding the different venues, types of gear, etc., so I won't waste space regurgitating.

I will add to the earlier comment though -- that after several years of IPSC/USPSA followed by a roughy equal number in IDPA -- I see there being a substantial "cultural" difference between them.

IPSC/USPSA is generally more hi-powered competition-wise. A good venue will be welcoming and supportive of beginners starting out, but to spend any time there you will likely experience the general expectation to step up to the plate, get in the game, and kick some butt. In addition to the skill-development aspects, equipment advancement is also considered part of the program. Your new buddies will be encouraging you to get a fairly highly tuned 1911 of some kind, the latest race-oriented holster rig. etc. The stage designs are also more intellectual, requiring a sort of chess-game approach to strategize your peformance.

IDPA may -- and I stress MAY -- be somewhat easier for people starting out. Maybe not so much difference on your very first match, but rather in being more able to go at your own pace during the course of several months. Nobody is likely to say anything about you showing up each month with the same factory-stock Glock in an Uncle Mike's holster. Stages also are more straightforward, emphasizing basic skills over larger-scale strategies.

Both are good, but both are different. Think about what you are interested in, and what kind of person you are. Maybe try one or two matches of each, then decide which to stick with.

Any shooting is good shooting, and matches in general are among the best. Good luck with your pursuits!

[Charles]

Not sure what you meant by putting those terms in quotes. But I know for a fact that there are plenty of Sharpshooter-level shooters with the mindset, tactical experience, and skill to beat the living hell out of many of the Master-class shooters out there. (and I say that as a Master-class IDPA shooter)

As do I. However all else being equel, the better shooter will win everytime, and thats my point. You can hope for the best, and you may get "lucky", but what happens when your luck fails? What happens when you come against someone who posseses mindset and tactics also? Surely one doesn't believe that all criminals are idiots that are scared of there own shadows?

I guess I just look at this from a different perspective.

[Gutshot John]

As do I. However all else being equel, the better shooter will win everytime, and thats my point. You can hope for the best, and you may get "lucky", but what happens when your luck fails? What happens when you come against someone who posseses mindset and tactics also? Surely one doesn't believe that all criminals are idiots that are scared of there own shadows?

I guess I just look at this from a different perspective.

I'm not sure this is directly relevant, but I seem to recall that when someone told Lee Trevino that he got "lucky" on a drive. His response was something akin to "It's funny, but I find the more I practice the luckier I get."

[ToddG]

As do I. However all else being equel, the better shooter will win everytime, and thats my point. You can hope for the best, and you may get "lucky", but what happens when your luck fails? What happens when you come against someone who posseses mindset and tactics also? Surely one doesn't believe that all criminals are idiots that are scared of there own shadows?

Charles -- absolute agreement from me on these points. I wouldn't spend so much time and money practicing if I didn't think it was giving me an edge. If you've ever seen my website, you'll realize I'm the last person to dissuade or discourage people from practice, training, or competition.

To paraphrase a famous line, all training is equal, but some is more equal than others.

[rob_s]

I don't understand why these threads always have to degenerate into IPSC shooters proclaiming their game is better, and IDPA shooters doing the same. I used to fall into this, but as I sat back and looked at it I really don't get it. Typically what happens is the same thing that happened here; someone of one discipline makes an offhand comment, and someone from the other takes offense and launches into a tirade. Odd.

Anyway...

When I was looking to get into game shooting 5 years ago +/- I chose IDPA because it seemed the most accessible. I had a gun, a couple of mags and a holster and I trotted out there and gave it a try. Our club has between 4 and 6 matches a month between IDPA, carbine, drills, 3-gun, etc. I keep wanting to try IPSC more but I frankly just don't have the time or the ammo with all that goes on with my "home" club.

With that said, I have shot IPSC, and I do see guys from the IPSC club come over and shoot IDPA from time to time. We also have a few guys that do both on a regular basis. Generally speaking, I don't see the IPSC shooters do very well at IDPA their first couple of times out, and the reverse appears to be true as well. It's not that one is better or worse than the other, it's just that they are different. They have different goals, rules, and mindsets.

At least around here, the IDPA club does tend to be younger and have less experienced shooters. This isn't to say that we don't have guys that are exceptional shooters, but that most find it to be more accessible due to the (whether perceived or real) equipment issues, and that brings out some guys that just bought their pistol at the gunshow last weekend. The IDPA club also appears to "advertise" more so that when these guys go to the range for the first time with their new toy it's an IDPA flier they see. I also think that the IPSC club sends all their potential newbies to us as well.

I agree completely with failure2stop, just get out there and do it. I see people come out to "watch" our matches all the time, and for the life of me I'm not sure why they don't just jump in.

Get yourself a Glock 19, have the shop throw in an extra magazine, buy a Fobus holster and mag pouch if you have to (just be prepared to ditch that junk first chance you get), and for $600-$650 you can be in the game immediately.

[ToddG]

rob_s: Just to clarify my position, I don't think one game is better than the other. Both have their pros and cons. I think your experience demonstrates the point I was trying to make, which is that for less experienced people whose focus is self-defense, IDPA tends to be the better starting place ... primarily because of the COFs, equipment, and "tone" of the average IDPA match.

On the other hand, IPSC tends to be more challenging from a shooting standpoint which is why I think you see so many really good IDPA shooters begin to gravitate toward IPSC also or even instead of. And if you enjoy it for the sake of competition, or you enjoy the mental game of planning your movements and figuring out the best stage strategy, IPSC certainly gives you more of that.

Neither game comes close to being "perfect."

[kihnspiracy]

The bottom line is, it's about getting out there and doing some shooting! I personally don't care if you like IDPA, IPSC etc. As long as you are shooting and practicing, then that is what counts. And having fun at the same time. I think far too many people spend their time looking down at other shooters, because they aen't into their personal type of shooting.