2013 SHOT Show Threads

[ruf]

Did you get any pics of the LM8 slick systems? The 13" LM8 MWS was awesome...

[patriot_man]

Hmmm not too sure what's going on. I did notice in the SHOT Day 1,2,3 thread that the white light lumens was blacked out with a sharpie out for the M300V so I am thinking it was a typo at SHOT.

Also the lack of X300V, X400V is something I noticed too. Maybe the catalog isn't updated? So many questions yet no answers. I guess they want us to sit tight until they release the new stuff.

[MarkG]

I would concur with you about Tier one bull shit marketing if it was anyone else, but Bill Geissele is a stand up guy and vetted by industry heavyweights. Mr Geissele developed the HK 416 rail at the request of Delta, and now Delta is having their guns deliver from HK with the Geissele rail pre-installed.

If Bill tells me this Glock mount is designed at the request of a tier one unit that does a lot of hostage work, I would wholeheartedly believe him.

I certainly can't argue the facts of a first hand conversation. I can question his incentive for making the statement. Unfortunately, only he can provide an answer. My skepticism is driven more by economics than anything else. Geissele is in business to make money. Removing the commercial market from the equation, how many hundreds of those mounts will he have to make and sell to tier one types to recoup his R&D costs let alone make a profit. That prototype could have cost $10K if you honestly consider the true time/machine/material costs. He is going to have to sell a lot of them to get back to zero. There just aren't enough tier one types that are going to adopt the mount to make that happen. With the economics of the mount out of the way, we can move on to first impressions.

It's going to need a dump pouch for a holster. The primary and only sight requires a battery. Why does it need a blast deflector when it doesn't have a compensator? Why do you need a magazine well for a "six second" run? The mount itself is not slaved to the slide but secured to a polymer frame that is subject to intense firing cycle physics. How long will it hold a zero?

... as ALG's primary mission as a company is to make kit exactly like that glock mount, and the ALG triggers.....or kit geared specifically for LEO/Mil requirements.

Really?

The AGL mission statement says:

Triggers designed for those shooters where tradition, value and regulatory concerns are of primary importance.

Translated: I like OEM triggers, I'm to cheap to buy a Geissele and I like to spend my free time writing letters to the ATF Technology Branch.

How did you get "kit geared specifically for LEO/Mil requirements" out of their mission statement.

I'd be willing to bet that 99.8% of Geissele's production capacity is sold to the commercial market. Any business model that is MIL/LE oriented is going to fail, period. There isn't enough of it and pricing invovles entering a race to the bottom.

Do you doubt the several other specific tier one requests for kit from Geissele such as the HK rails, or SSF triggers?

Doubt has nothing to do with it. I don't care.

For the record, Geissele and ALG don't have a marketing department or even an employee dedicated to doing marketing for their products.

Geissele manufactures high quality parts and by all accounts has a great reputation in the business. I think we can agree that at this point, their reputation alone will carry the business model. Geissele has no reason to play the "Tier One" card. I personally could care ****ing less about tier one anything. In most cases, I run from ANY company that chooses to use it because it doesn't resonate well with me.

Tell me my business model isn't a winner: Build good stuff, support your product and STFU = Win

[SMGLee]

I certainly can't argue the facts of a first hand conversation. I can question his incentive for making the statement. Unfortunately, only he can provide an answer. My skepticism is driven more by economics than anything else. Geissele is in business to make money. Removing the commercial market from the equation, how many hundreds of those mounts will he have to make and sell to tier one types to recoup his R&D costs let alone make a profit. That prototype could have cost $10K if you honestly consider the true time/machine/material costs. He is going to have to sell a lot of them to get back to zero. There just aren't enough tier one types that are going to adopt the mount to make that happen. With the economics of the mount out of the way, we can move on to first impressions.

Simply look at the Geissele 416 rail, how many MR556 or how many 416 are in use? how many SFOD-D operators are in serivice to fulfill the demand for Bill to pull even on his investment? I don't think there is enough 416s in Delta to help Geissele come out on top on this venture. Most likely he will not recoup the cost of developing the 416 rail, but Bill at the request of the Unit, jump at the chance to do something for them. In the end something good came out of it, his Super rail for AR were an off shoot of that project, and he could likely make money with the rail for the DI market. so as you debate the point of dollar and cents, I just don't think that statement could stand with a man like Bill....

[Shooter07]

What are the opinions on the new SOCOM line of Sup's? Anyone have any range time?

[Jim D]

I certainly can't argue the facts of a first hand conversation. I can question his incentive for making the statement. Unfortunately, only he can provide an answer. My skepticism is driven more by economics than anything else. Geissele is in business to make money. Removing the commercial market from the equation, how many hundreds of those mounts will he have to make and sell to tier one types to recoup his R&D costs let alone make a profit. That prototype could have cost $10K if you honestly consider the true time/machine/material costs. He is going to have to sell a lot of them to get back to zero. There just aren't enough tier one types that are going to adopt the mount to make that happen. With the economics of the mount out of the way, we can move on to first impressions.

What you don't realize is that JSOC will write a check to develop a prototype. That's how they get holsters developed for some of these unique items (like the X400 on a Glock 22 {the only X400 fit safariland offers} or the mini-RDS ALS prototypes). A lot of products are brought to the commercial market after Uncle Sugar fronted the start up costs to get what they wanted.

It's going to need a dump pouch for a holster. The primary and only sight requires a battery. Why does it need a blast deflector when it doesn't have a compensator? Why do you need a magazine well for a "six second" run? The mount itself is not slaved to the slide but secured to a polymer frame that is subject to intense firing cycle physics. How long will it hold a zero?

Bill's mount looks a hell of a lot more secure and rugged than the rest of the frame mounted optics mounts available. Durability (or the lack there of) with slide mounted optics has proved to be a concern, hence the interest in Aimpoint RDS sights and reducing the forces upon them. The holster concerns only hammer home the fact that it wasn't developed the commercial market.

Really?

The AGL mission statement says:

Triggers designed for those shooters where tradition, value and regulatory concerns are of primary importance.

Translated: I like OEM triggers, I'm to cheap to buy a Geissele and I like to spend my free time writing letters to the ATF Technology Branch.

How did you get "kit geared specifically for LEO/Mil requirements" out of their mission statement.

I'd be willing to bet that 99.8% of Geissele's production capacity is sold to the commercial market. Any business model that is MIL/LE oriented is going to fail, period. There isn't enough of it and pricing invovles entering a race to the bottom.

I've talked to dozens of guys who had Geissele triggers in their issued rifles. Why do you think they offer parts for the SCAR-17 and the HK416? It's because they're getting requests from units that will pay for them.

As for their being no money in LE... that's false. I do LE sales and our numbers are WAY up this year. LE sales are pretty recession proof. Bad guys still need to be shot and locked up even when the economy is in the toilet.

Doubt has nothing to do with it. I don't care.



Geissele manufactures high quality parts and by all accounts has a great reputation in the business. I think we can agree that at this point, their reputation alone will carry the business model. Geissele has no reason to play the "Tier One" card. I personally could care ****ing less about tier one anything. In most cases, I run from ANY company that chooses to use it because it doesn't resonate well with me.

Tell me my business model isn't a winner: Build good stuff, support your product and STFU = Win

You don't have to believe it, but the bottom line is that the most demanding and best trained and equipped unit in the world prefers his triggers to other "match" triggers on the market. That speaks volumes when you have companies like KAC and LMT that already have .mil contracts for their equipment, yet Bill still gets their business for triggers.

Bill's equipment has been vetted under worse circumstances than 99% of us will ever face... that's something to be proud of, and I can't fault him one bit for being honest about it.

[Biggy]

I hope they decide to come out with a Super Tricon "E" version trigger. I think "I" would like the trigger bow profile with the rounded edges, slight curve and serrations more than the "D" series trigger profile.

[SMGLee]

1911 Rail gun


Colt Competition with a flared mag well and a billet receiver.




















Interesting rifle from Colt Defense....looks like a rail less 6940 with extended section and an adjustable DI gas tube.

[Kenneth]

[img]

Looks great!




Lol

[SMGLee]

Looks great!




Lol

Be Patient grasshopper!