Verbal commands before engaging?

[sboza]

... As of law, many or most jurisdictions have laws that are along the lines of "feasibility" of verbal commands / warnings. Meaning that when the use of deadly force is justified, verbal commands / warnings may not be necessary in instances where the issuance verbal commands / warnings may increase the risk of danger to the individual or others being protected. So in other words if you issue some type of warning that may put your life or the lives of others in greater jeopardy from "tipping your hat" then a verbal warning may not be necessary under law. Of course you need to be able to articulate your justification, which leads to number 2 below.

I am usually in agreement with you brother but I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this right. Can you give an example of a jurisdiction which requires verbal commands if the conditions to use deadly force (in that locality) have been met?

Other than that, I agree with your post, particularly the fact that too many folks wait too long or use a lesser and inappropriate level of force (for various reasons) in situations warranting deadly force.

Good rule of thumb is to learn the appropriate laws (probably in your CCW manual) and be able to ARTICULATE your actions in context of your level of training and experience, the bg's actions (and words), and any other pertinent information.

[sboza]

When I see these threads, I want to yell... "DROP THE KEYBOARD!"

(and then shoot)

Yep. Like that guy in a training environment who "What if's" the hell out of the instructors.

[glocktogo]

A verbal challenge is a tool. Justification of deadly force can be bolstered by using that tool. If variables allow, give one. If it doesn't, use the force justified.

Sounds pretty succinct. I'd add that if you plan on using verbal commands as a tool, that you practice them. Verbalizing weakly will only embolden your opponent. Using a command voice is something a lot of CCW'ers don't routinely do. Also, try doing it and actually shooting at the same time. As I've discovered, the act of verbalization and shooting simultaneously is NOT something most people can do well.

[SeriousStudent]

Sounds pretty succinct. I'd add that if you plan on using verbal commands as a tool, that you practice them. Verbalizing weakly will only embolden your opponent. Using a command voice is something a lot of CCW'ers don't routinely do. Also, try doing it and actually shooting at the same time. As I've discovered, the act of verbalization and shooting simultaneously is NOT something most people can do well.

This.

I was in a pistol class a few months ago. We were told to issue a short verbal challenge from a low ready, then wait for the instructor to tell us what was happening. Basically, giving us data and making us decide if it was a shoot or no-shoot.

I yelled STOP so loud it echo'ed off the concrete backstop, and everyone on the line froze, even the instructors.

One of whom then turned and said "Yeah, do it like that!"

Our society these days is so polite, most people have never been taught to really project a command voice from the diaphragm. They speak conversationally, or just yell like a little girl.

Bellow your command like a wounded water buffalo, and you might not have to shoot someone. Dramatically smaller amount of paperwork that way, too.

[markm]

Yep. Like that guy in a training environment who "What if's" the hell out of the instructors.

I've suffered that scenario indeed.

[hogfan1911]

Thanks for all the input, guys. I'm not a fan of these "what if" scenarios either, but it's what was presented to me, so......
My response has been similar to what gan1hck said. Not looking for compliance with the command, just one more layer covering the CCW'ers butt as to why the shooting was justified. There is no legal requirement here in AR to issue any kind of verbal warning first. And it's not for avoiding criminal charges so much as the potential civil suit that would follow from shooting that "good boy who had just fallen in with the wrong crowd" but was "turning his life around" until you shot him in the back "execution style" and so on. But like glocktogo pointed out, shooting and verbalizing simultaneously is difficult, so I will definitely be pointing out that it should be included in the training I strongly encourage my students to seek out after they are done with my class.
Ty B, I spend a portion of my class correcting a lot of those internet/gunstore commando misconceptions, like the "drag 'em inside", "I carry a .45 because even if I hit 'em in the hand they're going down", and "a .357 Mag snubby is ideal for the little lady".
I also keep my class size to a max of 10 students, and put a lot of emphasis on the following: situational awareness/avoidance of confrontation, use of cover (or at least concealment) whenever possible, dry fire & presentation from concealment practice at home, and seeking out more advanced training from reputable sources.

[Alaskapopo]

I'm a CCW instructor, and a question has recently come up. I know what my answer is based on what I've studied/learned/taught up to now, but there are lots of folks on here more experienced than me. I'd love to hear some other opinions, either to back up my own or to let me know I'm wrong so I won't continue to pass incorrect info on to my students. The general scenario: you're in a store, CCW'ing, when an armed robbery begins. Gun waved around, verbal threats of violence, etc. The bad guy's back is to you, he doesn't even know you're there. Assume for whatever reason that retreating safely isn't an option. You're on the phone with 911 already. The situation escalates to the point that you reasonably believe you are now justified in using deadly force to prevent innocents from being killed/seriously injured. As you engage, do you yell any verbal commands such as "stop, drop the weapon, etc.", or do you just start shooting? Why?

It totally depends on the situation. As a CCW you really should not be getting involved in robberies unless you feel someone is going to get killed. Just let them take the money and be a good witness. Now an active shooter is a different situation and one where you would not give any verbal warnings. Something else to consider you can not shoot and talk at the same time. Its been proven and in fact if some one does have the drop on you if you can get them to talk it will buy you a few fractions of a second in which to react, draw and shot etc. Its also the reason why when we serve search warrants the last guy in the stack is yelling police search warrant not the first one. Talking will slow down your ability to recognize the threat and engage him.
Pat

[zacbol]

Insights Training school teaches "verbal commands" but not in the sense you may be thinking. They say to think of them like a 'tape recording':

1. Police! Drop the weapon.
2. Police! Call the police.
3. Stay away from him, he's still dangerous.
4. Look around did he hurt anyone else.

They are said as you're firing. As in you don't say 'Drop the weapon' and wait to see what happens, often in the exercises you're saying 'Drop the weapon' as you fire.

Much of it is about letting everyone around you know *you're* the good guy, both so others who might engage know, but also when they give statements later, it will likely color their perceptions of events. That's why the phrasing is important...stay away from *him* he's *dangerous*.

There's also the hope that someone *will* drop a weapon, without thinking, when issued a command. Many people do if it's done forcefully. But again, you're saying these things after you've decided to shoot, you don't pause, you don't wait for a response, you train to say them automatically. I haven't seen that from many other schools, though interestingly SouthNarc has a similar concept when talking about MUC. A preset number of phrases you can use without thought while assessing.

And for anyone thinking saying 'Police' is impersonating an officer, their stance is you're *calling* for police not saying you are one. Though obviously it's intentionally vague. A number of the Insights staff are cops and in the classes i've been they're often been a few cops. None ever had an issue with it when they heard the explanation. You're not dressed as a cop, showing a badge, etc.

[TacMedic556]

We are often trained that if we are talking we cannot shoot as effectively if at all. This is why when we have a dangerous suspect that is being arrested after talking him/her down or out, there is a designated shooter or two WHO DO NOT TALK, an arrest team and an officer giving commands. The guy talking, giving commands, instructs the suspect what to do (turn around, lock your fingers behind your head etc.) while the shooters concentrate on preparing should lethal force be needed still.

In my opinion and experiences I think that any of us needs to remember that there is a time when words will no longer be needed and only hinder our reflexes and response times.

Answering the OPs question; I am shooting. There is a gun, a lethal weapon being waved at innocents, every second wasted is one I cannot get back, and any second the suspect could choose to fire. If words startle him, he could turn and shoot. I am not risking my life or any innocents to "save" a goblin. He is getting dropped.

[Alaskapopo]

Insights Training school teaches "verbal commands" but not in the sense you may be thinking. They say to think of them like a 'tape recording':

1. Police! Drop the weapon.
2. Police! Call the police.
3. Stay away from him, he's still dangerous.
4. Look around did he hurt anyone else.

They are said as you're firing. As in you don't say 'Drop the weapon' and wait to see what happens, often in the exercises you're saying 'Drop the weapon' as you fire.

Much of it is about letting everyone around you know *you're* the good guy, both so others who might engage know, but also when they give statements later, it will likely color their perceptions of events. That's why the phrasing is important...stay away from *him* he's *dangerous*.

There's also the hope that someone *will* drop a weapon, without thinking, when issued a command. Many people do if it's done forcefully. But again, you're saying these things after you've decided to shoot, you don't pause, you don't wait for a response, you train to say them automatically. I haven't seen that from many other schools, though interestingly SouthNarc has a similar concept when talking about MUC. A preset number of phrases you can use without thought while assessing.

And for anyone thinking saying 'Police' is impersonating an officer, their stance is you're *calling* for police not saying you are one. Though obviously it's intentionally vague. A number of the Insights staff are cops and in the classes i've been they're often been a few cops. None ever had an issue with it when they heard the explanation. You're not dressed as a cop, showing a badge, etc.

If your talking you will not be shooting. Your brain can not do both at the same time.