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Member
Are our guys allowed to take personal weapons over to the sandbox? I have to let one of M1As go. It's got everything and tuned by a Camp Perry master. Burris scope, lots of mags, cheek rest and all the tools. I'd love it if some GI used it professionally.
Industry Professional/Moderator
The default answer is no.Originally Posted by Phil Hirsh
There are exceptions, but they are for non-conventional forces, and depending on a lot of factors and personalities. Regardless, they have all the guns they need to fulfill their mission, have trained with them for countless hours, and have met durability testing far past that of CP tuned match guns.
Contractors may have the option, but I do not have experience in that arena.
Your intent is noble and admirable, but not likely to actually happen.
Industry Professional
Back in the "Wild West" days of Iraq some contractors procured their own weapons for use here. Nowadays, with all of the scrutiny and the Iraqi M o I checks you can forget it. Most if not all will terminate you immediately and send you packing. Plus, you will not get the weapon home 99% of the time. Some of us purchased uppers as a compromise and put them on our M16's or Bushamsters.
As for the military, not happening.
Subject Matter Expert
Phil,
The only way I can think of is to have a contractor's company buy it and then it is issued to the contractor. However, as a contractor rules of engagement is defensively only and very limited. That is why those that are armed are usually only with a pistol or a 5.56mm AR carbine. Than you also have to get a MND letter stating that you are authorized to carry that weapon. I'm limited to my SIG 9mm and M4 5.56mm.
CD
Member
You also run into the issue of re-importation. Once it leaves the country, it takes an act of congress to get it back.
My son and I discussed this before he went over because I wanted him to have a handgun at his disposal. My solution was to send him enough funds to buy one from another troop as they were leaving when he arrived.
Subject Matter Expert
Re entry should not be a problem according to US customs law. A US citizen has the right to take firearms out of the country and reenter with his property. IE hunter going to Canada or any where else. I used to take my guns to Germany and would not be require a ATF form 6 (importation license).You also run into the issue of re-importation. Once it leaves the country, it takes an act of congress to get it back.
My son and I discussed this before he went over because I wanted him to have a handgun at his disposal. My solution was to send him enough funds to buy one from another troop as they were leaving when he arrived.
However, as a US soldier in a combat zone there is under General Order #1 listing no Personal Owned Weapons and no bring backs. To me this is an unlawful order as it contradics US law. (as many things in the US military, we are second class citizens even though we're the defenders of it)
CD
Industry Professional
Diver,
The problem is that privately owned weapons are not authorized for use by military personnel. You are correct that if you take a firearm overseas and bring it back and you can provide sufficient proof that the weapon was purchaed/ owned previosuly in the U.S it is not a problem.
The reason you cannot bring weapons/ parts back into the U.S from Iraq is due to the still on the books arms embargo against Iraq. Even though there was an update that was a vaguely worded exception for private security operations in Iraq, or something along those lines. Again, if you contact the appropriate agnecies they will give you the tap dance and point you to this or that law/ rule, but will not clarify.
As for bringing certain other weapons back, it can be done. I am in the process of bringing a captured/ found Mauser K98 back. But, I must first get permission, i.e. pay for an export permit from the MOI and then do the appopriate paperwork with ATF. It can still be rejected though.
If you are fortunate to find a weapon here made prior to 1898 then it is very easy as it is not classified as a firearm. My friend just sent home via USPS (2) Snyder Enfields from Afghanistan.
Late Senior Member
The whole "former weapon of war" individual importation thing is a legal minefield at best. We deal with it here in Germany, too, as old 98k's and Lugers and such are all on the list of non-importable weapons. Granted, there is nothing restricted about the weapons themselves, but the individual/servicemember importation exemption is specifically limited to sporting guns.
I'm guessing that, once upon a time when arsenal 98s were available by the case load -- and the dollar was actually worth something -- the intent was to prevent G.I.'s from mass importation, but the net effect of this archaic restriction is that today we can't even import a hunting rifle built on a 98 action. My loose understanding is that a licensed importer could still handle such a transaction (though I've no idea what the process might involve), but an individual soldier cannot. As soon as the ATF inspector sees "8mm Mauser," a four-digit serial number, or anything suggesting a connection to the 98 action, the importation request is inevitably denied.
Given the hurdles that must be overcome to even possess a privately owned weapon in Germany these days (and American servicemembers are now subject to the German laws), it is a shame that this is still on the books. Guess it's time to check the Yellow Pages for "arms importers" if I'm to have any hope of getting my reworked G.33/40 carbine back home. (Imagine an M1 carbine-sized weapon that fires the full power 7.92mm x 57mm round, topped with a nice S&B Zenith and served cold.)
Of course, the original subject of this thread (bringing a privately owned weapon into a combat zone) is even less of an option for an active duty servicemember. We're strictly prohibited from doing anything of the sort, whether we can prove prior ownership or not. Like many others, I find that slightly absurd, given the nature of our profession, but this is one battle that was fought, and lost, long ago.
Chief
Subject Matter Expert
I'm going to ask ATF another question and word it differently. If WWII German K98s are now "Curio and Relics" can this apply for a servicemember/US citizen?
CD
and maybe your G33/40 there Chief.
Late Senior Member
Obviously, I would greatly appreciate any efforts to advance our collective cause in this case; that said, as the Form 6 reads now, it seems pretty clear that we have to declare whether or not said item is a "surplus military firearm." As soon as we indicate in the affirmative, the battle is lost. Trouble is, there doesn't seem to be any clear alternate path to getting this done the right way (if indeed one exists) for those of us that are still trying to play by the rules.
I mean, c'mon ATF ... it's not like I'm trying to import a crate of unissued StG-44s ... yet. LOL
http://www.hqusareur.army.mil/opm/guns.htm
http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53303b.pdf
Chief
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