General awareness and opinion of new semi-autos: Vepr, 1919

[Aries144]

Over the past few months I've seen a small surge in shooters with new box magazine-fed shotguns that load like an ar15 and feature last-shot bolt hold-open devices: the Turkish MKA1919 and the Russian Vepr 12 (Saiga makes an almost identical model to the Vepr, but I haven't personally seen one).

These new shotguns function very much like modern rifles, only using shotshells instead of rifle rounds. They seem better than traditional tube-fed semi-auto shotguns in every way and are similarly priced.

I eventually picked up a Vepr 12, wrung it out with a variety of birdshot, slugs, and buckshot, and am very impressed with it. The Vepr 12 and the Turkish shotgun seem to represent (finally!) a significant advancement in firearms capability.

The rifle shooters I know are always interested in examining every new design that comes around, hoping to see something significantly better after years of the same 1950's - 1970's systems rehashed in new ways. Why is it that there isn't more discussion or excitement about them on shotgun forums and among shotgun shooters in general? (To the contrary, they almost seem to be taboo.)

[LHS]

People are terrified that the ATF will repeat past performance and declare them "Destructive Devices" under the NFA, just like they did with the USAS-12 and Striker-12 in the early 90s. The NFA gives the govt wide latitude to essentially ban import of any shotgun they don't like.

[talaananthes]

Didn't congress recently pass a low preventing the ATF from banning any more shotguns because they aren't sporting?

Personally, I'd go with the regular rock and lock Saiga 12 over those. Price of mags is a major issue, but also the support and secondary market of stuff available for them.

[talaananthes]

Also, the VEPR 12 at least has a non-adjustable gas system, and I personally think that the Saiga's adjustable gas makes it a better system (once you put a higher quality adjustment cap on it and learn how to use it). The difference in pressures of shotgun ammo is so massive, being able to adjust is IMO a big bonus.

[LHS]

Also, the VEPR 12 at least has a non-adjustable gas system, and I personally think that the Saiga's adjustable gas makes it a better system (once you put a higher quality adjustment cap on it and learn how to use it). The difference in pressures of shotgun ammo is so massive, being able to adjust is IMO a big bonus.

The Vepr's gas system is supposed to be auto-regulating. The three I've shot all ran fine with cheap birdshot, low-recoil buck, and full-power buck. That's more than I can say for a factory Saiga.

[talaananthes]

Hmmm I didn't realize they were auto-regulating. Good to know. Saigas do take some fixing from the factory. I enjoy that aspect.

[warpigM-4]

the saiga 12 i had never gave me any problems,
Mags was the down fall to me I had a factory 8 round i sold for 200 bucks , the 5 rd one was like 30 bucks this was before the US made mags came about
I sold the Shotgun awhile Back for a good profit if it had a last round bolt hold it would have made things so much better .
I never adjusted the gas setting I left it on the high setting and shot everything from cheap wally world birdshot to oo buck ,it was a interesting weapon But i could handle the standard shotguns better .
I really like the Vepr Line

[Aries144]

I can't speak for the MKA 1919 except that the guy running it in our matches doesn't seem to have any trouble from his, aside from still trying to figure out the best way to handle slug select portions of stages when loading from box mags.

The Vepr 12 doesn't have any gas adjust, auto or manual. Whoever initially reported that was mistaken or was deliberately misleading. They are simply full open all the time. They do feature some durability improvements in the way the gas puck and oprod interface over the Saiga 12 though.

From my brief experience, I'd only be concerned with the lack of gas adjust if I planned to shoot a lot of 3" buckshot or comparable. All of the 2 3/4" stuff I've fired seems fine. Function is still fine on the 3" stuff, I'm just concerned I'm beating the shotgun to death. I'll probably buy and modify a spare gas puck with some grooves to allow some gas blow-by for use with 3" shells.

Magazines aren't that bad, so long as you don't insist on trying to find Russian mags. Russian 8 round mags were coming in at around $99 and they're even harder to find now than initially.

SGM makes 12 and 10 round mags that are ranging in price from $38 to $50 per. They are made so they can be cut down to 10, 8, 5, or 3 rounds by the end user. You just cut the mag and slip the floor plate on the next rib.

Any of the aftermarket Saiga 12 mags that I've seen (AGP and SGM's rock-in mags) can be modified to work with a Vepr 12 in a few minutes with some filing. The bolt hold-open won't be activated, but there may be work-arounds for this if you're handy.

The major changes with this shotgun over the Saigas are that they run out of the box with everything, they come with AK-type rifle sights, they come in pistolgrip configuration, they feature a very well-designed bolt hold-open that features an external bolt release as well as an external hold open button, and most importantly, the magazines are much, MUCH easier to load on a closed bolt.

The major advantages over other shotguns I've run are the super fast reloading and bolt hold-open. I can operate the controls, shoot, and reload mine as fast as an AR. Mag changes are very slick.

I'm a rifle/pistol shooter who didn't like shooting shotgun. I love shooting with this shotgun.

ETA: It has been confirmed by one of our Russian friends that Vepr shotguns can use Saiga 12 bolts and carriers, though the Vepr 12 oprod would need be be swapped onto the Saiga carrier. The handguards and pistol grip are AK/RPK compatible (though the gas tube is unique) and they accept any stock that'll work with an RPK- regular AK stocks need some fitting to fit in the receiver.

These Vids show off the shotgun pretty well:
Vepr 12

SGM Vepr 12, 12 round mags

[LHS]

The Vepr 12 doesn't have any gas adjust, auto or manual. Whoever initially reported that was mistaken or was deliberately misleading. They are simply full open all the time. They do feature some durability improvements in the way the gas puck and oprod interface over the Saiga 12 though.

Interesting. All the factory literature says it's an auto-regulating gas system, but then again, the factory literature is an almost comical translation from Russian to English, so it's entirely possible that something got lost in that translation, or that it's simply marketing hype.

From my brief experience, I'd only be concerned with the lack of gas adjust if I planned to shoot a lot of 3" buckshot or comparable. All of the 2 3/4" stuff I've fired seems fine. Function is still fine on the 3" stuff, I'm just concerned I'm beating the shotgun to death. I'll probably buy and modify a spare gas puck with some grooves to allow some gas blow-by for use with 3" shells.

Good to know, though I highly doubt I'll ever run 3" shells through mine.

Magazines aren't that bad, so long as you don't insist on trying to find Russian mags. Russian 8 round mags were coming in at around $99 and they're even harder to find now than initially.

SGM makes 12 and 10 round mags that are ranging in price from $38 to $50 per. They are made so they can be cut down to 10, 8, 5, or 3 rounds by the end user. You just cut the mag and slip the floor plate on the next rib.

Any of the aftermarket Saiga 12 mags that I've seen (AGP and SGM's rock-in mags) can be modified to work with a Vepr 12 in a few minutes with some filing. The bolt hold-open won't be activated, but there may be work-arounds for this if you're handy.

So I've heard. My main problem is finding any of the dedicated Vepr-12 mags (either SGM or Russian) available. I managed to snag five of the 12-round SGM mags before things went completely sideways, but none of the usual suspects has any in stock at the moment. I like the idea of the bolt hold-open, but none of my other rifle-caliber AKs has such a feature, so I just run my standard AK manual of arms with the Vepr and generally only use the bolt hold-open if I have to show clear, i.e. at a sporting clays range.

The major changes with this shotgun over the Saigas are that they run out of the box with everything, they come with AK-type rifle sights, they come in pistolgrip configuration, they feature a very well-designed bolt hold-open that features an external bolt release as well as an external hold open button, and most importantly, the magazines are much, MUCH easier to load on a closed bolt.

The major advantages over other shotguns I've run are the super fast reloading and bolt hold-open. I can operate the controls, shoot, and reload mine as fast as an AR. Mag changes are very slick.

I'm a rifle/pistol shooter who didn't like shooting shotgun. I love shooting with this shotgun.

ETA: It has been confirmed by one of our Russian friends that Vepr shotguns can use Saiga 12 bolts and carriers, though the Vepr 12 oprod would need be be swapped onto the Saiga carrier. The handguards and pistol grip are AK/RPK compatible (though the gas tube is unique) and they accept any stock that'll work with an RPK- regular AK stocks need some fitting to fit in the receiver.

These Vids show off the shotgun pretty well:
Vepr 12

SGM Vepr 12, 12 round mags

I don't like the sights, at least not on a shotgun. I'm running an Aimpoint Micro on it right now, but that's not ideal either as it sits too high and I need some kind of stock riser to get a good cheek weld. I may just open up the rear aperture for a faster sight picture with the irons and go with that, or try to jury-rig a cheek riser on the stock to validate the concept before I sink a ton of money into a dedicated stock setup.

For me, the major advantages of the Vepr over the Saiga are as follows:

1. It runs out of the box with birdshot as well as buck.
2. It comes in a pistol-grip format, so I don't have to spend time/money/effort converting it.
3. It seems, from my previous (albeit limited) experience with Saigas, to exhibit better build quality and assembly.

Given that Saigas were pushing $700 and needed a lot of work to get to the same state as the Vepr that I bought for $1000, I am happy with my choice.

[Aries144]

Interesting. All the factory literature says it's an auto-regulating gas system, but then again, the factory literature is an almost comical translation from Russian to English, so it's entirely possible that something got lost in that translation, or that it's simply marketing hype.

My favorite line from the manual is "ATTENTION! IT IS NOT ALLOWED TO USE PAPER FOR FOLDING UP THE FOOD-STUFF, PERSONAL TACKLE AND SO ON."

...and so on.

So I've heard. My main problem is finding any of the dedicated Vepr-12 mags (either SGM or Russian) available.

They seem to be coming out in batches. Get on the various preorder lists with caronlina shooter's supply, atlantic firearms, etc, set your smart phone to buzz you when you get an email, and be ready to quick-draw your CC numbers from memory at 6:00am.

I don't like the sights, at least not on a shotgun.

Several folks seem to like running their shotguns with rifle sights without issue. I'm undecided so far. It doesn't seem to make any difference to me, but then again, I haven't shot any clays with it yet. I may try swapping a Krebs windage adjustable peep rear sight onto it to see if I like that better.