gripping a carbine

[hwaya]

Here's a good article by David Borresen, an instructor at Tigerswan, on what they teach

http://davidthedavborresen.blogspot....ne-stance.html

[Surf]

i am new to the rifle world ( less than 3 months ) and was wondering for combat style use is gripping it around the magwell good or bad thanks

It can be good or bad, it just depends as the situation that you are currently faced with that will be a key contributing factor as to the efficacy of the technique used.

There is a time and place for different techniques, however we should all have a default technique that we practice and use under more optimal situations. This is just like any sport, as in throwing a baseball, football etc, etc. Of course we are not always going to have an optimal situation so being able to adapt quickly and respond with high levels of proficiency with an alternate or maybe even an improvised technique is the true sign of a great shooter. But any great shooter or sports person, honed those skills off of a solid base foundation to build from. All pro's still practice that default standard all the time during basic warm ups. All sports.

So having a default technique should ideally allow the shooter to accomplish as many positive goals as possible for their intended purposes all from the same shooting platform, which includes your grip and stance. Also many people's own shooting experiences are often limited by the amount of exposure and training that they may or may not have had in a broader range of situations. In other words, there are many shooters that may genuinely "not know, what they don't know". Because of this or perhaps a lack of an open mind they are not able to grow or expand their knowledge base and / or skill levels.

Just to quickly comment on the ignorant comments in regards to a more outstretched grip which people think is some new flavor of the month, I will add that it is funny because some 30 years ago when I was shooting as a teen in competitive shotgun shooting sports we liked to get our support hand as far out as the fore grip allowed. We could not wrap our thumb overbore for obvious reasons on the shotgun, but the longer rails these days on this platform of rifle is allowing for many changes in reverting back to an outstretched grip which is NOT something new. Longer rails and better equipment is allowing for people to do what was common knowledge a long time ago. Ironically my current AR/M4 shooting platform looks very similar to my shotgun shooting platform from 30 years ago, except that now I tuck my primary elbow a bit and I do a thumb overbore. I bet if I could have gone thumb overbore 30 years ago on my shotgun I would have.

[Koshinn]

Here's a good article by David Borresen, an instructor at Tigerswan, on what they teach

http://davidthedavborresen.blogspot....ne-stance.html

"Must" extend the stock all the way? Don't know if I agree with that.

[markm]

The broom analogy doesn't suggest holding the broom by one end and by the bristles as your fishing pole analogy does. In my experience holding a rifle/carbine as far forward as is comfortable does not induce extra strain or fatigue. Key word being comfortable. I didn't say grip it all the way at the end.

I never said you said anything... not trying to put words in your mouth... Just saying that comparing sweeping the floor to shooting a carbine is ****ing silly.

My feelings on these intructors of late is that they're too tied into the industry and are pitching certain shit to keep classes full.

I just get irritated when shooters can't think for themselves and hang on every word that comes out of these intructors' mouths.

[Littlelebowski]

I just get irritated when shooters can't think for themselves and hang on every word that comes out of these intructors' mouths.

Yup, that's me.

[Littlelebowski]

Thats a narley elbow man. I'd love to hear the story behind it. It is on here somewhere or on your blog?

http://pistol-training.com/articles/how-i-got-shot

[Jeff Franz]

I never said you said anything... not trying to put words in your mouth... Just saying that comparing sweeping the floor to shooting a carbine is ****ing silly.

Regardless of what you think of the particular analogy used, it is simple physics. Moving the fulcrum point (your support hand) changes the moment arm, and moving your hand back also increases the mass on that moment arm. the longer the moment arm and the greater the mass, the more force it takes to move it. furthermore, the greater the mass, the more inertia effects the mass, which means it takes more force to start or stop it's movement, which affects precision and accuracy, especially when transitioning between targets. I have had it proven to me with about 50 rounds, a shot timer, and a few drills by some of those instructors you so despise. It is in fact harder and more fatiguing to shoot with a magwell grip and maintain accuracy.

My feelings on these intructors of late is that they're too tied into the industry and are pitching certain shit to keep classes full.

This is the most ignorant statement I have read in this thread. Guys like Vickers, Mac, Hackathorn, Defoor, etc. have been teaching by and large the same TTP's for years. They have based what they teach on what worked for them on actual two way ranges. With regards to the specific practice of grabbing as much gun as possible, it has been around a long time. It hasn't changed as a "flavor of the month" technique.

Smart shooters who are serious about improving train with multiple people and take bits and pieces from each instructor they train with that works for them. I can say personally that my own shooting skills and knowledge have increased dramatically over the last 20 years by exposing myself to many sources of instruction. I can make that statement with empirical data from the shot timer and measurable metrics with regards to accuracy. While there a certainly differences between instructors on certain things, when they all share the same view on something like grip, that's a clue. And when it is confirmed with a measurable increase in performance, it becomes a fact.

[6933]

"Must" extend the stock all the way? Don't know if I agree with that.

I believe he means as far as possible given the situation. Length would vary depending upon thickness of layers of clothing, armor, etc. That is the answer I was given at TS. Dave is a straight up bad MF and knows his shit inside and out; he just didn't clearly explain his thought.

[Moltke]

If you want to shoot accurately and quickly, there's more to it than gripping a carbine - but that is part of the equation. If you want to maximize your ability to grip a weapon effectively then it would make sense to have a balance between torque and control of the gun, and comfort. If you want to learn from a pro, then sign up for a training class or if you want to learn from the top AR shooters around, watch some of the winners in 3 gun shoot their rifles. You will notice that they change their stance based on the shots they take.

For close range rapid fire, generally they are going to have as much torque on the gun as possible with a support hand forward, thumb over bore grip and they'll rip rounds into the target. For free standing shots that are farther away they'll relax their stance a bit, cradle the gun more, and have a much less aggressive stance. You need to know what kind of shot youre going to take before you really decide what stance and grip youre going to have on your gun - which is why I linked the AR's in Action thread. There are many different methods to gripping an AR.

Try all the ways, see how they work for you, and then pick a few to focus on. For up close rapid fire shooting, the support arm forward with a thumb over the bore is a hard stance/grip to beat with body mechanics - but it just might not work for you.

[Packman73]

This thread is a bit silly. Who gives a "F" how the next guy is holding his rifle. As if there is one perfect way for everyone. What works for me may not work for you and the reverse is true as well.