gripping a carbine

[C4IGrant]

This nails it. The trainers are constantly changing what is en vogue to keep the classes full.

I think people should try stuff and God forbid... THINK FOR THEMSELVES.

The better way to look at it is that they are "growing." If all the top firearms instructors stayed with the "norm" we would all be graduates of Gunsight.

I don't build AR's the same way I did 10yrs ago. Did I change as I found better ways to do things? Yes.

If you don't know ANYTHING (meaning no training), you will simply do what you see on TV and in Movies (or mimic the moron next to you at the gun range). Being that we are creatures of "if it feels good do it," we will hold the gun the way that "feels" best to us. This commonly not the best way to do things.

While holding the magwell isn't the end of the world, it does not help you drive the gun from target to target in any way. Its only application (IMHO) is having to hold the gun on a fixed location for long periods of time.




C4

[Moltke]

This thread is a bit silly. Who gives a "F" how the next guy is holding his rifle. As if there is one perfect way for everyone. What works for me may not work for you and the reverse is true as well.

There's not. That's the point.

For certain shots and certain people, some techniques are going to be better than others - but there is no "one way" to do it.

[C4IGrant]

"Must" extend the stock all the way? Don't know if I agree with that.

Extending the stock all the way helps greatly with:

1. Allowing the shooter go to full extension on their arms.
2. Makes clearing malfunctions easier (as you don't get what I refer to as T-Rex arms).


Of course if you have short arms are are wearing body armor, you will need to adjust the length.



C4

[C4IGrant]

This thread is a bit silly. Who gives a "F" how the next guy is holding his rifle. As if there is one perfect way for everyone. What works for me may not work for you and the reverse is true as well.

Certain techniques DO increase speed and control over other ways. This is why you don't see any professional competition shooters using the magwell hold (for instance).

With that said, we are all different in our size and our guns. So some things will always be different, but the goals are always the same (put rounds on target as fast and as accurately as possible).



C4

[Failure2Stop]

My advice:
Do whatever you want.
Go to a state-level or above 3-gun match.
Pay attention to how all the guys beating you are shooting.
Do whatever you want with that information.

[Arctic1]

@markm:

Just curious, what background and experiences do you have that make you critique instructors in the "industry", claiming that they hype their technique or certain techniques in order to fill classes?

As has been stated, some of these guys' experience level goes way beyond competition or plinking on the range, and I think it is strange that you would assume that the technique they are teaching does not have merit, and is a result of some form of hype.

Sure, people can hold their rifle/carbine in whatever way they like, but as I alluded to previously and explained very well by Jeff Franz, physics come into play in all this. As I said earlier, I understand changing your grip, but it should be a result of either mandatory gear og physical limitations (injury, short arms etc). I don't like the "do whatever you want" mindset.

I am sure you have probably done it, but you can shoot a VTAC Half & Half, once using a magwell grip and the stock fully collapsed and once with a forward grip and extended stock. I think that your accuracy will be better with the latter method.

[Packman73]

Certain techniques DO increase speed and control over other ways. This is why you don't see any professional competition shooters using the magwell hold (for instance).

With that said, we are all different in our size and our guns. So things will always been to be different, but the goals are always the same (put rounds on target as fast and as accurately as possible).



C4

Agreed. Frame size, strength, arm length, rifle configuration all factor in to what will work for an individual. Preference and position are important too.

[Shao]

While I agree that holding your gun as close to the muzzle as possible will help with speed-shooting, I believe a closer in grip
is superior for slower, more deliberate shooting.

To prove my point - hold your left arm out and try to keep your hand and arm as steady as possible: most people will notice a slight
tremor start to occur after only a short period of time. Now tuck your elbow in and try to keep your hand and arm as steady as possible - I, for one, can keep my hand as steady as a rock with my elbow tucked in for what would seem to be an indefinite amount of time.

So to me, it all boils down to what kind of shooting you're doing. If you're in a run-and-gun kind of timed competition, then the arm extended, thumb over the rail technique would be superior because it would allow you to get more shots on target in a shorter amount of time due to increased control over muzzle-flip. But if you're target shooting, or just shooting for groups, I believe that a more natural and successful position would be the classic rifle grip.

The other benefit of a close in grip, as Grant pointed out, is out of need due to being engaged in an extended shooting scenario. No one wants to hold their rifle out that far for 3-4 hours+. Look at pictures of our troops holding their weapons - I don't recall seeing any of them holding them that far out... and for all of those calling their training outdated, you have to realize that what is taught is culled from years of experience, compiled battle data and research. Sure, longer length free-float rails weren't around 20-30 years ago, but M-16s were/are long enough to grab near the front sight, but no one did or does that now - do they? For competition and short gunfights, I say go for it, but I believe there's a reason why the military is still issuing M4s with 7 inch handguards and not 12" cutaway rails.

There... I think that answers it. Flame away if you feel the need. Just my opinions.

[Littlelebowski]

Sure, longer length free-float rails weren't around 20-30 years ago, but M-16s were/are long enough to grab near the front sight, but no one did or does that now - do they?

Do you shoot Isosceles or Weaver? What did they shoot in the Vietnam era?

[Shao]

Do you shoot Isosceles or Weaver? What did they shoot in the Vietnam era?

I shoot my own stance... Kind of a modified modified Weaver with my body almost lateral to my target and a wider-than-usual stance, hard leaning, ~63% of my weight on my leading foot, head low. I don't wear body armor, so I like to present as small of a target as possible to my enemy while also maintaining maximum control of my weapon. Similar hard leaning techniques have been used with great success by women of a smaller stature to help better control their handgun, so I don't see why it wouldn't benefit a man as well in controlling follow-up shots.