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Thread: New Bushmaster Texas DPS M4

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by FVC3 View Post
    But Mactastic, youre not factoring in the $4.00 extractor spring/insert and the other 5 minutes it might take to stake the castle nut.

    Balance that against the fun of trashing all the lesser weapons! Heck of it is, there is plenty of metal deformation around the screws on that carrier. If you ever had to remove similarly staked screws during some mechanical project, you'd look at it and think "oh SH^* !" how am I gonna back those out?

    Here is the simple truth. If a company cannot do the SIMPLE things correctly, what makes you think that they can do everything else properly?

    Pat Rogers has a book of broken parts that he carries around. It is filled with broken BM AR's.

    Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn both advise heavily against the use of a BM product for serious work.

    Do you think these three instructors just got up on day and said "Hmm, let's tell everyone to not use BM for no reason at all!"

    Can you take a BM and is improperly assembled and make it work? Sure can. The question is, should have too??


    C4

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by FVC3 View Post
    But Mactastic, youre not factoring in the $4.00 extractor spring/insert and the other 5 minutes it might take to stake the castle nut.

    Balance that against the fun of trashing all the lesser weapons! Heck of it is, there is plenty of metal deformation around the screws on that carrier. If you ever had to remove similarly staked screws during some mechanical project, you'd look at it and think "oh SH^* !" how am I gonna back those out?




    In your contest to see who can be the biggest wiseguy, as stated well earlier you are both missing the big picture. Keep in mind my positive posts about Bushmaster here in this thread alone. Also know that I may have sounded exactly like you when I first came here. But, there is a method to the madness as they say.

    The bottom line is who makes these weapons the best? Which are ideal under the harshest conditions? Which should you use if your life is on the line and failure isn't an option under those conditions? These educated shooters here are telling you just that. I realized that and you should, too.

    Keep all that you see and hear in these forums in context. They are not bashing, just judging based on level of experience that most of us simply do not have. Remember, these forums are not so much about what will kill a vicious little prairie dog the best, but rather bad people that want to kill you fast and hard, so expectations are as high as possible.

    As stated, my Bushmaster is perfect for general use, never a problem so far. But, all things considered, if I were lined up to work overseas for a year, I would want bring the most dependable weapon anywhere to protect my life and that of my men. Having to check, modify and/or replace internal stock parts that are fine in other brands is not how I would want to start things off with my primary weapon.
    "Facit Omina Voluntas = The Will Decides" - Army Chief


  3. #63
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    On a somewhat related note, does anybody know who actually makes Bushmaster's barrels?

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    <SNIP>
    Last edited by FVC3; 11-08-08 at 10:09.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slater View Post
    On a somewhat related note, does anybody know who actually makes Bushmaster's barrels?
    Most likely several different companies.


    C4

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by FVC3 View Post
    Some here sit back and smugly slam every non- Colt, LMT, Noveske, whatever. If any of my BMs had let me down during a week long carbine course, I'd factor that into my choices - but they have not. If any had experienced loose keys or buffer tubes, I wouldn't defend the brand. If I had ever had non mag-related failures or poorly sized chambers, or canted FSBs or any of that kind of thing, I'd have to nod and harumph and agree that I'd seen that, too. But in god-only-knows how many thousands of rounds over many years, I have had nothing but excellent service from my BMs.
    Just so I am reading this right, you have run one BM through one carbine course? If that is not correct, please clarify.

    It is great that your BM runs great, there are lots of others out there that do not. You mention several KNOWN issues with BM's (poor gas key and castle nut staking, canted FSB and tight chambers). All of those issues have actually been acknowledged by BM. Even in my recent conversation with a VP at BM, they TOLD me about all of these things happening (and some that I have not heard of or seen).

    When looking at a weapon, you cannot look at just one or two. You have to compare the weapons in LARGE QTY's. The simple fact is that every dog has his day and it IS possible for BM to put out a quality AR. As generalization though, they do not at this point and time.

    As I posted earlier, I do know know of any professional trainer that recommends BM for serious use. I would hope that you view this as a clue.



    As the site lead trainer in the nuclear security industry, it was my job to read and respond to EVERY operating experience report generated industry-wide. The majority of faciities fielded BM rifles (we did not, we had Colts- A1s to M4S). OEs had to be written if a loose round was found in the bottom of a mag pouch or if Officer Schmuketelly's mag dropped from his rifle, or if a bolt broke during training. Considering the number of rounds the NRC required we shoot, and the number of rifles out there - there were very, very few problems. Any general trend would have resulted in the entire industry ceasing use of all affected weapons and fixing the problem or repalcing the response weapons. That never happened with weapons - though it did with more than one batch of ammo and some accessories.
    Your BM's were most likely cherry picked and or built to your reqs (like the DPS ones are). This is most likely a very good weapon as they put much more effort into it. The general consumer though does not get this level of scrutiny. You guys kind of live on an island and you have to realize that there are a whole bunch of other BM's out there.

    Was there a window of time or a certain model BM that may have had problems? Maybe - I don't claim to be a BM historian or the AR industry know-it-all. I only Know what I have experienced, what my industry has experienced, and what many fellow BM shooters have experienced. Those experiences have been overwhelmingly positive. Positive enough that I am uncomfortable sitting quiet when someone who knows the answer disingenously asks "Milspec or commercial buffer tube on that BM?" like the answer matters one freakin' bit to the strength or durability of the thing. I have NEVER seen a buffer tube break at the threads - the tube itself is actually thicker - not thinner than mil-spec.
    In the 90's BM was a good quality AR I think. Much past that, they have been seeing more and more issues. As I said, you are on an Island with your BM. The rest of the free world gets a much different weapon than what you most likely have.

    The receiver extension is a good one. It is true that the commercial RE's are bigger than the mil-spec ones. They are also made out of MUCH cheaper materials than the mil-spec RE's. Does this matter to the casual shooter? No, not really. If someone wants the strongest part they can get though, the should NEVER choose a commercial RE. Oh and, RE's do break.

    If BM is doing something poorly, why so many contracts - including military contracts? Are all the buyers for all these big agencies assholes?
    This is a good one that is often seen on the errornet. BM (like many other manufacturers) generally win contracts for the following reasons:

    1. Low Cost
    2. Availability

    Currently BM has ZERO .Mil contracts (according to the VP at BM I just spoke too).

    Purchasing officers are NOT trigger pullers. Their job is to save money and fill the req. This means buying whatever you can get your hands on.

    Oh wait, Podunk PD and Backwater Sheriff's Dept. don't have them on the approved list. I'll call TX and TN and a few dozen others and bring them up to speed.

    Why not call them out on their published claim that they build to "Mil-spec or better"? If you really believe that's not true, why not challenge them?

    End of Rant
    Lot's of places do not have them on the "allowed" list (not just a handful).

    I have called them out on their "mil-spec" quote. Almost nothing on the BM AR follows the TDP. Not the barrel steel, not the testing done, not the extractor internals, not the feed ramps, not the receiver extension, not how they assemble the weapon, etc ,etc.

    I have tried to exchange info with you in a positive manner and not bring it down to a pissing match. I fully respect that you and the group you work for have had a positive experience with BM. I also do not doubt what you say either.

    What I am trying to show you though, is that the BM's you have (that were most likely ordered under contract with specifics reqs) is not what everyone else gets.


    C4

  7. #67
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    Can Bushmaster make a good carbine? Yes. They make plenty of perfectly functioning guns.

    However, the biggest issue with Bushmaster IMHO is they arent as consistant, as say, Colt. The QC and proofing isnt as strict so more lemons slip through.

    The competition is just alot tougher all around and Bushmaster still conducts business like they are they only game in town
    Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
    What Happened to the American dream? It came true. You're looking at it.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dano5326 View Post
    If it works for you great.....

    I know a couple dead guys unimpressed with BM's QC/QA. I've seen near 90% failure rates involving hundreds of carbines. That LE buys something is absolutely NO indicator of quality, in fact probably the opposite. Bean counters need a weapon thats reasonably priced, to sit in a car for 20 years and hold up to a mediocre rd ct. The majority of LE weapons will shoot less in the entirety of service life than I do in week.

    I have no $$ interest in pimping or disparaging any companies wares... But I've seen serious statistical trends with some makes. If you carry a BM or DPMS I would re-evaluate.

    I am always amazed that people put stock in what LE agencies buy. This should actually be classified as a warning of what not to buy (in most instances).



    C4

  9. #69
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    As Rob_S would say, ask the people who buy them because their LE has them:

    "Where's your crown Vic?"

  10. #70
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    FVC3,
    You started this thread with reservations, and are now mad that they've come true? Were you just looking for a fight?

    No one said you were not an expierianced shooter (1978, why does that dound so much like someone I've been working with?), only that those here are expieiranced, and are sharing their thoughts and insights.

    You say you've had excellent results with your personally owned BM's,(7 ?), how do you reconcile that with all the problems everyone else is having?

    When I worked at another facility in the DOE complex, BM's were bought post 9/11, I saw alot more then 7 fail to make it thru 3 rounds to zero.
    Armorers working at the DOE academy specifically recommended against BM, not even for a "fun gun", as it "won't be any fun, if it doesn't work".
    I know of another org. in the complex, that bought BM, due to availability, as soon as they could, they switched to Colt, because the BM "suck" as I was told.

    What NRC site do you work at? I used to work at one, a few years back, and do not remember the reporting standards, or shooting schedule you speak of. Maybe things have changed, but the outage workers, always told us, how we were the only site that carried rifles, were so strict, etc. We'd loose rounds all the time, it happends, don't recall any reports. Just curious.

    Bob

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