Which Semi-Auto?

[Alaskapopo]

Really? They suck?

You sure you're not overstating the case just a little bit? I know it isn't Italian, but suck? Really? What happened to those guns? What parts broke? How long were they down?

All I've used for skeet/clays/3gun everything for years and I inherited 2 of 3 from a grandfather who was a fanatic skeet/clays shooter. They're still pretty popular though not as popular as they were. Clays guns go through way more use during a season than most 3 gun competitors. No one ever complained that they "sucked".

The only ones I see fail are ones that aren't properly maintained, even then the fix is usually two minutes and you're up and running typically after a bit of lube or a new gas ring.

An 11-87 is a perfectly adequate and reliable shotgun. Like any other gun, it has to be maintained to be reliable.

If I had the cash, and was new to the game, I'd perhaps go with the Versamax too, but I see no reason to swap out what I have. Let's not pretend that you're going to die if you shoot an 11-87 instead of something Italian. I've seen those Italian semis go tits up as well, even the vaunted M2.

They seem to fail because of the seals going bad. There is a running joke about Remington 1100 in three gun. Their fine as long as you bring 2 to the match so when the first goes down you can finish with the second. Also if your Benelli goes down at a match no one will be able to help you fix it because it so rarely happens. However if a Remington goes down everyone will know how to fix it.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

For the price I still think it is hard to beat a Mossberg 930 series. If cost isn't so much an issue I would go with a Benelli M2. I've heard of some reliability issues with the M4 but I can't confirm it.

The M4 works fine heavy but fine. I owned one.
Pat

[Pilot1]

I think I want to add a semi-auto shotgun to my collection but which one? Why?

I know most semi-autos put the buffer spring in the stock so aftermarket stocks are somewhat limited. What are my options here?

What about cleaning and reliability? I don't know much about semi-auto shotguns but I have heard their gas systems can be finicky.

Thoughts?

What do you want to use it for? Home defense, bird hunting, sporting clays? I like Beretta gas guns. They are reliable, and easy to maintain. The Benelli's are great also, as are Brownings. You can't go wrong with the three B's.

[Gutshot John]

Rings do go bad. They also take 30 seconds to replace. I've never run into a problem with my 11-87s that I couldn't fix inside of a few minutes with the right parts.

In fact I can only remember ONE failure that wasn't fixed by a new seal or more lube and couldn't be fixed on the spot. It could have been had I had a spare piston (really more of a metal ring) that cracked after about 50K rounds.

The operating system is dead simple, reliable, and easy to work with.

If I was a competitor I might consider putting a new ring in my gun before hand.

Like I said, maintenance of any semi-auto, especially shotguns is necessary if you want them to work reliably.

This is also true for Benelli.

If uber-reliability were my criteria in a semi-shotgun I'd look at a Winchester SX3.

[GunnutAF]

GH41
A few oz difference in weight between my Light 12 and the Mossy 500! My Sweet 16 is actually lighter! Since I don't shoot for times( 3 Gun) that long recoil impluse means zip to me!

[Alaskapopo]

Rings do go bad. They also take 30 seconds to replace. I've never run into a problem with my 11-87s that I couldn't fix inside of a few minutes with the right parts.

In fact I can only remember ONE failure that wasn't fixed by a new seal or more lube and couldn't be fixed on the spot. It could have been had I had a spare piston (really more of a metal ring) that cracked after about 50K rounds.

The operating system is dead simple, reliable, and easy to work with.

If I was a competitor I might consider putting a new ring in my gun before hand.

Like I said, maintenance of any semi-auto, especially shotguns is necessary if you want them to work reliably.

This is also true for Benelli.

If uber-reliability were my criteria in a semi-shotgun I'd look at a Winchester SX3.

Benelli's need almost no maintenance. I have cleaned my Benelli's like once a year and I shoot them all year in matches with no issues. Why bother with a gun that is so finicky when you can have one that needs no special baby treatment. The Winchester is not ultra reliable because it needs to have its springs for the carrier and magazine replaced often. I have friends who runs those as well. (mostly the FN SLP which is the same gun) The two guns to have is the Benelli and the new Remington Versamax.

[thopkins22]

A Benelli or a FN SLP are the easy answers. There are other options that may work, or may work with work, or may simply never work reliably enough for games or defense. But you're gold with those two.


Apologies for the thread drift here, but I had to say something about this.

A small DA revolver is in my opinion the best home defense gun if it has to be shared by the family. Would you rather arm your wife with a semi or revolver in a point and shoot situation? I would rather mine have the revolver. I would use the semi for speed when playing games... one on one across the bedroom I'll take the pump and a revolver. GH

I would rather arm her with something that's easy to use and significantly easier to shoot. A semi-anything all day long.

Pistols and shotguns aren't complicated to use at a basic level, women are just as capable of figuring out how to pull a trigger 15-17 times in the case of a pistol and 5-9 times in the case of a semi auto shotgun. I'd much rather count on her(and anyone's) ability to keep squeezing the trigger than figuring out how to reload a revolver under stress, or risk her short-stroking a pump shotgun or fumbling with a revolver reload which can go awry with the most seasoned shooters.

Go to the range, your wife can come too but if it's true for you it will most likely be true for her. Stand at 7-10 yards(or the longest distance in your home that you could have to take a shot at.) Using a timer put 10 rounds into the A zone/-0 zone of an USPSA/IDPA target. Which was easier? Which was faster? Which were you capable of better accuracy with? Hell take the reload for the revolver out of the equation and fire six rounds...I bet the same is still true. It'll also be true at closer distances.

[Gutshot John]

A whole year? How many rounds are you shooting in that year?

What do you shoot? 20-30 rounds in a match? How many matches year? 5-6? 10? At best that's a few hundred rounds. You don't need to clean your gun more than once a year.

I shoot 4-5 times that amount shooting clays or skeet in a day, 3-5 times a month, 9 months a year and I'm not even all that serious.

I promise you the 11-87 is plenty reliable. Way more economical, much softer shooting, and in all ways is a perfectly adequate shotgun.

Benellis are nice guns, so are most Italian shotguns, but you don't need an Italian shotgun to have your semi be reliable.

[Alaskapopo]

A whole year? How many rounds are you shooting in that year?

What do you shoot? 20-30 rounds in a match? How many matches year? 5-6? 10? At best that's a few hundred rounds. You don't need to clean your gun more than once a year.

I shoot 4-5 times that amount shooting clays or skeet in a day, 3-5 times a month, 9 months a year and I'm not even all that serious.

I promise you the 11-87 is plenty reliable. Way more economical, much softer shooting, and in all ways is a perfectly adequate shotgun.

Benellis are nice guns, so are most Italian shotguns, but you don't need an Italian shotgun to have your semi be reliable.

Actually I shoot about 30 rounds in a match 2 matches per month 12 months per year. Then there is practice which is about the same amount of ammo per year. So I shoot about 1500 to 3000 shotgun rounds per year depending on how much I practice. This is not must my own experience ask most any three gunner about the reliability they have had or seen from Remington 1100's and 1187's and they will tell you the same 90% of the time. They are not reliable guns.

As for sporting clays I have friends who shoot it and they tell me the same issues are seen with Remington 11-87's and 1100 there. One will not trust an auto because of it and only shoots over unders as most trap guys shoot.
Pat

[Gutshot John]

This is not must my own experience ask most any three gunner about the reliability they have had or seen from Remington 1100's and 1187's and they will tell you the same 90% of the time. They are not reliable guns.

Pure Internet bullshit.

They may parrot something that they read somewhere but it's almost certainly not based on actual experience with the guns. I'd give more credence to the 10%.

I know quite a few people that shoot those guns. They remain one of the most popular semi-autos on skeet and clay fields maybe outside of Beretta.

If they can stand up to that level of use, they can stand up to anything a 3 gunner is going to put their way.

An M4 going 3000 rounds a year without cleaning? Ok, if you say so. My M2 would have shit the bed long before then. My 11-87 could certainly handle that with a bit of lube, I haven't tested it to 3k, but I've definitely done 2k without cleaning. In a given year I'm putting about 6k rounds, and again I'm not really that serious compared to others.

So let's see: Cost, Comparable reliability, shootability, ease of maintenance, wide access to spare parts, wide availability of accessories, functional interchangability (you can't turn an M4 into a clays gun or duck gun, but you can certainly do just about anything with an 11-87).

To make a comparison to computing...If you're telling me that the Benelli is a Mac to Remington's PC? Sure I'd buy that. If on the other hand, you're telling me that PC's are unreliable and they suck, well then I'm going to tell you that you don't know what you're talking about...no matter how many apple fanboys you find to tell me that PCs suck.