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Thread: M27 on Tac-TV last night!

  1. #91
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    Re: M27 on Tac-TV last night!

    Quote Originally Posted by sinlessorrow View Post
    I surprised ya'll didnt choose a HF barrel from FNH since they currently make the A4 and have the machines to produce the barrels.
    You can't require a specific vendor in a mil requirements document without a lot of heartache and a very good reason. The manufacturers submit what they think is the best fit for the stated performance and the testing validates it.

    Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
    Jack Leuba
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    You can't require a specific vendor in a mil requirements document without a lot of heartache and a very good reason. The manufacturers submit what they think is the best fit for the stated performance and the testing validates it.

    Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
    Makes sense, was a different barrel looked at for the PiP?
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Colt builds War Horses, not show ponies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dano5326 View Post
    HK 1st said 30K rds for the 416 to some users... not so much in real life. They now say 10K. There is no physics altering cloud covering the factory in Germeny. Overselling does not engender confidence in a companies wares.

    Several US manufacturers can produced a hammer forged, chromed lined of equal or superior quality.
    Through independant testing the barrels were getting signifantly more life than the 10K.

    However, the US made CHF barrel tested did have a approx 10K service life.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0N View Post
    Through independant testing the barrels were getting signifantly more life than the 10K.

    However, the US made CHF barrel tested did have a approx 10K service life.
    10K on a CHF barrel? What kind of firing schedules were they subjected to?
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Colt builds War Horses, not show ponies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?

  5. #95
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    An improved M4 with a 16" heavy barrel, longer gas system, heatsink fore-end, and a stabilizing muzzle device would have been smarter.
    -commonality of parts from barrel nut back, ala less proprietary crap
    -armorer training essentially unchanged
    -not wedded to fluctuations of foreign quality
    -much better recoil characteristics
    -cheaper, definitely so over lifecycle
    That describes the two submissions from Colt almost perfectly. They made it as finalists in the competition, but for whatever reason they were not chosen.

    FWIW:


  6. #96
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    As someone looking in from the outside, the whole procurement process for the M27 seemed screwy.

    First they put out a requirement. Then they kick out most of the entrants (every American-made entrant, save for the Colts) for mostly specious reasons. And then they change the requirement so that only one of the final entrants makes any sense... a final entrant that did not meet the initial requirements as well as any of the other final entrants or even some of the pre-cut-down entrants.

    I'm not saying that I believe that the M27 or the HK416 is not a fine weapon. I am thoroughly convinced that they are. But I do remember reading predictions from face-shooting folks in the military that the H&K was going to win specifically because it is an H&K and for no other reason. And from where I'm sitting, that appears to have been a correct assessment.

    (Again, I've not shot any of the weapons in question. I was in no way involved in the process to adopt the IAR. All my knowledge on the matter comes from reading about the entrants and what SMEs have said about the entrants. It just seems to me that everyone else put a lot of effort into their weapons to make them fit the requirements of the Marines, while H&K just seems to have slapped a heavy barrel and a bayonet lug on the HK416 and called it good. Without even redesigning the mag well to take the then available Pmags, as H&K has now done for the KSK's HK416A5s.)

    I'm wondering, if the 'Great Recession' had not occurred if the Marines would be seriously considering the M27 as a general issue weapon at this time. And if the IAR was an attempt to do an end-run around the politically-suicidal effort necessary to seek a replacement for the M16A4 and M4.
    Last edited by MountainRaven; 03-09-13 at 17:33.
    " Nil desperandum - Never Despair. That is a motto for you and me. All are not dead; and where there is a spark of patriotic fire, we will rekindle it. "
    - Samuel Adams -

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fjallhrafn View Post
    As someone looking in from the outside, the whole procurement process for the M27 seemed screwy.

    First they put out a requirement. Then they kick out most of the entrants (every American-made entrant, save for the Colts) for mostly specious reasons. And then they change the requirement so that only one of the final entrants makes any sense... a final entrant that did not meet the initial requirements as well as any of the other final entrants or even some of the pre-cut-down entrants.

    I'm not saying that I believe that the M27 or the HK416 is not a fine weapon. I am thoroughly convinced that they are. But I do remember reading predictions from face-shooting folks in the military that the H&K was going to win specifically because it is an H&K and for no other reason. And from where I'm sitting, that appears to have been a correct assessment.

    (Again, I've not shot any of the weapons in question. I was in no way involved in the process to adopt the IAR. All my knowledge on the matter comes from reading about the entrants and what SMEs have said about the entrants. It just seems to me that everyone else put a lot of effort into their weapons to make them fit the requirements of the Marines, while H&K just seems to have slapped a heavy barrel and a bayonet lug on the HK416 and called it good. Without even redesigning the mag well to take the then available Pmags, as H&K has now done for the KSK's HK416A5s.)

    I'm wondering, if the 'Great Recession' had not occurred if the Marines would be seriously considering the M27 as a general issue weapon at this time. And if the IAR was an attempt to do an end-run around the politically-suicidal effort necessary to seek a replacement for the M16A4 and M4.
    I am not sure how the whole competition went and will let others speak to that, but it has been stated they did look into adopting the M27 to replace their A4's and M4's but supposedly it was to expensive and would have taken to long.
    Last edited by sinlessorrow; 03-09-13 at 21:48.
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Colt builds War Horses, not show ponies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?

  8. #98
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    HK ran a lot cooler than the competition.

    Unfortunately their commercial MR556A1 offerings suck. Boat anchor barrels and no chrome. Their excuses for doing this are laughable. Nobody runs a match with a blue label boat anchor barrel. Yes some people don't run chromed barrels... because they run stainless barrels.

    Their failure to set up a US factory and crank out 10.4, 14.5 and 16.5 upper receiver kits for anyone with a credit card has cost them millions of dollars and ceded the market to a bunch of fly by night piston AR makers that turn out junk. HK even sent out harassing letters to people that were accidentally allowed to purchase 416 uppers a few years back. Bunch of tin eared kraut d-bags.
    "Life is short, but the years are long." - Robert A. Heinlein

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by armakraut View Post
    HK ran a lot cooler than the competition.

    Unfortunately their commercial MR556A1 offerings suck. Boat anchor barrels and no chrome. Their excuses for doing this are laughable. Nobody runs a match with a blue label boat anchor barrel. Yes some people don't run chromed barrels... because they run stainless barrels.

    Their failure to set up a US factory and crank out 10.4, 14.5 and 16.5 upper receiver kits for anyone with a credit card has cost them millions of dollars and ceded the market to a bunch of fly by night piston AR makers that turn out junk. HK even sent out harassing letters to people that were accidentally allowed to purchase 416 uppers a few years back. Bunch of tin eared kraut d-bags.
    Did you expect any less from HK? Civilian sales are not their strong suit. I do wish they would focus more on the civilian side in the US, there is a huge market here.
    Last edited by sinlessorrow; 03-09-13 at 23:11.
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Colt builds War Horses, not show ponies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dano5326 View Post
    HK 1st said 30K rds for the 416 to some users... not so much in real life. They now say 10K. There is no physics altering cloud covering the factory in Germeny. Overselling does not engender confidence in a companies wares.

    Several US manufacturers can produced a hammer forged, chromed lined of equal or superior quality.
    I had conversation with one unhappy HK customer. The comment was that "after mere 70K rounds only barrels are still GTG". Of course those guys do not use full auto much, only during some rare scenarios.

    10K rounds is suspiciously low life for barrel. Polish military standards do not allow for degraded accuracy (or any parts breakage) in 10K rounds (procedure for barrel life test is in short, shooting some mags semi auto, then some mags bursts, then some mags f/a dump, then cool barrel in bucket with water, da capo al fine, of course with intermediate accuracy and muzzle speed measurements). Our Beryls, with CHF, chrome lined, light profile barrels have zero problems meeting this requirement.

    BTW, regarding M27 price, if I remeber correcty, Trijicon SDO aiming device makes up for over 50% of M27 cost.
    Last edited by montrala; 03-11-13 at 12:19.
    Montrala

    I'm sponsored competition shooter representing Heckler&Koch, Kahles, Hornady and Typhoon Defence brands in Poland, so I can be biased

    http://montrala.blogspot.com

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