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Thread: M27 on Tac-TV last night!

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinlessorrow View Post
    I fear rust living near the coast in SE Texas far more than I do barrel wear.
    I live in Louisiana and do not. My HK barrels do not seem to be very rust prone. Haven't seen any in my HK91, HK93, or MR556 and I am, how do you say, less than compulsive about cleaning rifles.

    Not saying HK barrels can't rust or are impervious to wear, but I think even in their unlined condition HK barrels are decently rust resistant.

    Montrala may be along shortly. He's had some first hand experience with an MR223 in a damp basement where the HK was fine while another AR showed rust. Not all steel is created equal, and different alloys will have different rusting properties.
    Last edited by Hunter Rose; 03-06-13 at 22:08.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Rose View Post
    I live in Louisiana and do not. My HK barrels do not seem to be very rust prone. Haven't seen any in my HK91, HK93, or MR556 and I am, how do you say, less than compulsive about cleaning rifles.

    Not saying HK barrels can't rust or are impervious to wear, but I think even in their unlined condition HK barrels are decently rust resistant.

    Montrala may be along shortly. He's had some first hand experience with an MR223 in a damp basement where the HK was fine while another AR showed rust. Not all steel is created equal, and different alloys will have different rusting properties.
    Its more of a salt on the coat combined with 80%+ humidity 6 days a week thing. I have had rust form on my SSA overnight because I was testing froglube and it did not spread to the trigger, I have also had numerous things rust overnight if they do not have a coat of lubricant and are properly cleaned. CL at least protects the bore from this issue.
    Last edited by sinlessorrow; 03-06-13 at 22:15.
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Colt builds War Horses, not show ponies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1371USMCFL View Post
    Having seen an issued M27 fired side by side to an issued M16A4, the M27 is a hands down better weapon platform. The only serious drawback is the lack of compariative capacity to the belt fed SAW. This problem could be alleviated with using the 60 round Surefire mag, but not the cure-all.

    Having talked with Infantry course instructors (both Os and Es), the key thing is fire discipline has to be ingrained into the Marines carrying M27s.
    I think that will be the key to having this platform succeed in the Marine Corps as a SAW. A auto rifleman doesn't have the 100-200 rd belt to do 8-12 rd burst with. I like the IAR idea, but think we would have been better served lightening a 240 to ala PKM. I also think that as long as the IAR is supplementing the 249 and not replacing we are good. It would be awesome if commanders had to option to tell their auto riflemen when they were carrying a M27 and when the threat dictacted a 249. I just feel that too many other countries have tried the auto-rifle idea and found it lacking.

    Although when word first came out about these my fellow squad leaders and I thought it would be awesome to have an entire squad armed with IARs.

  4. #44
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    I don't doubt its an accurate weapon, but I do doubt that it can provide the base of fire that an M249 can. How are these integrated into a Marine infantry squad? How many SAW's will be left in the squad?
    If all targets were point targets I'd be fully on board with this but it was my experience that many if not most targets were area targets. Volume of fire trumps accuracy when it comes to these types of targets. I'd like to see how well the M27 does at supressing a treeline or multistory house compared to a SAW.
    I don't see what this system offers over a standard M4/16 other than a bit more accuracy. It seems to me that they are turning the automatic rifleman into a designated marksman with a happy switch. From what I've read the M27 is a fine weapon. I just question its application as an Automatic Rifle.
    Last edited by KG_mauserman; 03-06-13 at 23:20. Reason: content

  5. #45
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    I'm not military and I don't spend nearly as much time studying these things as some, but here goes nothing.

    I don't doubt its an accurate weapon, but I do doubt that it can provide the base of fire that an M249 can. How are these integrated into a Marine infantry squad? How many SAW's will be left in the squad?
    FWIW, taken from Wikipedia:

    The IAR will be distributed one per four-man fireteam, three per squad, 28 per company, 84 per infantry battalion, and 72 per Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion,[18] with 4,476 total for the Marine Corps. Nine M249s will still be available per company in reserve.
    It's not completely replacing the M249, but it seems Marines will see a lot more M27's now than M249's.

    I don't see what this system offers over a standard M4/16 other than a bit more accuracy. It seems to me that they are turning the automatic rifleman into a designated marksman with a happy switch.
    I think it's more about what it offers over an M249, which would be increased reliability, accuracy, and decreased weight. Though these benefits do come at the cost of a reduction in sustained fire capability. I think another plus is that the entire ammunition load for a squad is now housed in STANAG magazines giving any member quick access to to the total sum of rounds if need be.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0311 View Post
    I think that will be the key to having this platform succeed in the Marine Corps as a SAW. A auto rifleman doesn't have the 100-200 rd belt to do 8-12 rd burst with. I like the IAR idea, but think we would have been better served lightening a 240 to ala PKM. I also think that as long as the IAR is supplementing the 249 and not replacing we are good. It would be awesome if commanders had to option to tell their auto riflemen when they were carrying a M27 and when the threat dictacted a 249. I just feel that too many other countries have tried the auto-rifle idea and found it lacking.

    Although when word first came out about these my fellow squad leaders and I thought it would be awesome to have an entire squad armed with IARs.
    R0N stated it was looked st but would cost far to much and take far to long.
    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Colt builds War Horses, not show ponies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iraqgunz View Post
    This is 2012. The world is going to end this December and people are still trying to debate the merits of piece of shit, cost cutting crap AR's. Really?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auto426 View Post
    I'm not military and I don't spend nearly as much time studying these things as some, but here goes nothing.



    FWIW, taken from Wikipedia:



    It's not completely replacing the M249, but it seems Marines will see a lot more M27's now than M249's.



    I think it's more about what it offers over an M249, which would be increased reliability, accuracy, and decreased weight. Though these benefits do come at the cost of a reduction in sustained fire capability. I think another plus is that the entire ammunition load for a squad is now housed in STANAG magazines giving any member quick access to to the total sum of rounds if need be.
    Let me ask you a question...


    If you were part of the assault element which would you want in the support by fire possition?

    Again I'm not saying the M27 isn't a great rifle, but thats all it really is.

  8. #48
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    Accuracy trumps volume of fire any day. Suppression is the result of accurate fire, not volume. Sure, belt fed machinguns (LMGs, MMGs) are a lot better at providing sustained fire, and will have an advantage over a magazine fed rifle when it comes to utilizing traversing fires.

    Also, the M27 IAR is not meant to be employed as a SAW. It is not designed or meant to replace it. As far as I understand, the IAR came about due to a capacity gap/deficiency in the Marine infantry squad when conducting MOUT missions; the SAW gunner was slower during movement, as well as having difficulties in performing MOUT tasks (room clearing etc) as a result of the SAW being a bit unwieldy.

    Each company is supposed to keep a certain amount of SAWs at the company level (I think), the thought being that you can task organize your unit based on METT-TC, using the gear best suited for the mission at hand. Don't the Marines have MMGs as well? M240s? Weapons squads?

    The M27 IAR fills a specific need, it's not a 1:1 replacement for the SAW.
    Last edited by Arctic1; 03-07-13 at 02:32.
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  9. #49
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    Arguing about whether or not the M27 is a fitting replacement to the M249 is like shaking your fist at the clouds.
    It has been tried, tested, proven, and found superior for purpose.

    The IAR conversations have been going on for years, and a whole lot of crow has been consumed since then. Argue it all you want, but this isn't the thread for it.
    Jack Leuba
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    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by KG_mauserman View Post
    Let me ask you a question...


    If you were part of the assault element which would you want in the support by fire possition?

    Again I'm not saying the M27 isn't a great rifle, but thats all it really is.
    Well as I said before I am not military and have no experience in these matters. However, if the M27 were used in conjunction with magazines like Surefire's 60 rouder or a similar higher than normal capcity mag (which I believe is already being looked into), I don't think most would see a dramatic difference that would impact the outcome of the mission.

    I do find it somewhat funny that the Marines are just now moving towards something that the Soviets started over 40 years ago. The M27 is analogous to the RPK that has been serving the SAW role since the 1960's.

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