Glock 23's for NOAA?

[Severian]

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[ArmaGlock]

Seriously, I think thats the first time I've ever seen someone arguing for the patriot act, and then in the next sentence, associate it with being beneficial to the constitution.

There are plenty of others that think the Patriot Act is a good thing. I don't see the big deal really. If you aren't doing anything you shouldn't be doing, why do you care who listens to your phone conversations? And 95% of the people who gripe and complain about the Patriot Act will never come close to being monitored, they just like to think that the government just listens to everyones phone conversations for no reason. I wasn't associating it with being beneficial to the constitution, I was simply stating that if he thought this country is so bad and violates so many peoples rights maybe he should try China out. My issue is with people that sit around bashing Federal Law Enforcement , Local Law Enforcement, State Law Enforcement and the Military while they protect them from being knocked off working in their quiet little offices.

[Severian]

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[graffex]

Wow. As a security professional, I often hear that default phrase spread by those who misunderstand what they are offering to give up. With an attitude like that, you can just hand over your privacy and personal freedom now to someone who really wants it, thanks.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Ben Franklin

It has nothing to do with having "something to hide" or disrespecting law enforcement or military. Privacy is a eternal human rights issue. Which is also guaranteed to us by the constitution, by the way. If you want to forfeit that right to be "safe" from "terrorists" (which is now a just label / media buzzword that can be placed on just about anyone thanks to the "patriot" act), be my guest, but don't expect the rest of us to flock like sheep to whatever privacy violations the .gov cooks up next in the name of "security".

Amen brother!

[Federale]

Wow. As a security professional, I often hear that default phrase spread by those who misunderstand what they are offering to give up. With an attitude like that, you can just hand over your privacy and personal freedom now to someone who really wants it, thanks.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Ben Franklin

It has nothing to do with having "something to hide" or disrespecting law enforcement or military. Privacy is a eternal human rights issue. Which is also guaranteed to us by the constitution, by the way. If you want to forfeit that right to be "safe" from "terrorists" (which is now a just label / media buzzword that can be placed on just about anyone thanks to the "patriot" act), be my guest, but don't expect the rest of us to flock like sheep to whatever privacy violations the .gov cooks up next in the name of "security".

The USA Patriot Act has nothing to do with the Government's ability to listen to your telephone conversations.

What irritates me is when people speak broadly about an issue that they really don't understand.

[davemcdonald]

I agree Federale. It amazes me that someone can put forth such a passionate and intelligent argument and yet be ignorant of the issue.

Alpha Sierra
Can you please cite the part of the Constitution that states that it is the only law the the US Government is allowed to enforce? Now I understand that US laws cannot counter the Constitution but I have never read the part that limits the US Government authority as strictly as you stated. Mind you I have only been reading, studying and enforcing the laws of this country since 1989. Surely, you as a Constitutional expert , know much more about the subject than those of us that have sworn an oath to defend and protect it everyday of our lives and have so for many years.

Here is a bit from Article 6:
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.


" I,______, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.''

[rhino]

. . . I don't see the big deal really. If you aren't doing anything you shouldn't be doing, why do you care who listens to your phone conversations?

The merits or lack thereof of the Patriot Act notwithstanding, the statement above is an example of the attitude that pervades too much of society and is allowing an ongoing loss of our rights and individual liberties each and every day.

It's as if the 4th Amendment isn't really all that important if you don't have anything to hide.

Hoo-boy. When I read things like the quote above, it's just another reminder of how much trouble we're really in.

[Severian]

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[ArmaGlock]

The USA Patriot Act has nothing to do with the Government's ability to listen to your telephone conversations.

What irritates me is when people speak broadly about an issue that they really don't understand.

I'm the one that brought up the listening to telephone conversations, it seems to be the gripe you always hear when someone starts complaining about the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act does allow the government a better ability to intercept and monitor communications related to terrorism. So you're right, unless he is a terrorist, it doesn't have anything to do with them listening to his phone conversations.

The merits or lack thereof of the Patriot Act notwithstanding, the statement above is an example of the attitude that pervades too much of society and is allowing an ongoing loss of our rights and individual liberties each and every day.

It's as if the 4th Amendment isn't really all that important if you don't have anything to hide.

Hoo-boy. When I read things like the quote above, it's just another reminder of how much trouble we're really in.

No the problem is, is people that get the idea in their head that the government is always listening to everyone's conversations, monitoring their email, etc. I doubt they have the resources for that, I know we don't on the local level. People complain and complain about how the government has over stepped its boundaries with the Patriot Act when they have never had their rights violated or even know of someone who has.

And trust me, I do not take my rights for granted, so don't attack my attitude as being one of a push over. I think the entire constitution is very important, I'm not saying the fourth amendment isn't important, but I doubt they are using the Patriot Act to just listen to anyone, it doesn't give them that right, it has to be involving terrorism and a few other things listed. I do believe however if someone is involved in terrorism they should be monitored without a warrant, they no longer have the benefit of the 4th in my opinion.

The one thing I do know is that I'm not involved in terrorism, therefor I will not be subject to the Patriot Act. And I don't claim to know how it works as far as how they monitor phones etc., but if I say something on the phone or in an email that seems a little suspicous and they catch it, then why shouldn't they listen just to be sure I'm not up to something? If they just say, oh it's just some white boy, he isn't a terrorist, next thing you know they take that laid back approach to everything and we're cleaning up another Oklahoma City.

That is all, we've gone way off topic. My apologies to the OP.

[Federale]

The Patriot Act does allow the government a better ability to intercept and monitor communications related to terrorism.

No, it doesn't.

This is not really a place to debate the Patriot Act or Constitutional Law, but my advice to everybody (should they wish to continue this) would be to stop speaking in rhetoric. But after reading some of these posts, that seems to be all that some are capable of doing. If you want to debate the Patriot Act, start by understanding it and understanding which particular privacies you think that you're actually giving up. "Slow erosion of rights?" Okay, which ones? If you think it violates the 4th Amendment, let's hear how.

That ought to get you started.