10.5 M4 vs MP5 SD

[VIP3R 237]

Personally i'd take the M4/Mk18 every time. The manipulation of controls IMO is easier and faster, and the accessories and mounting options are so much more diverse.

[RyanB]

Someone to tell me that there is something out there better than a short M4 and why. Also, this transition to pistol idea comes up often and I don't see the point. I am more accurate with an M4 and have much better weapons retention.

The idea comes up with regard to confined spaces. An SD MP5 and a MK18 are similar in size and the MP5 is likely going to be heavier. If one isn't small enough neither is the other.

I'm nobody. I have some shooting class experience, some time behind both guns on a square range and three days of force on force stuff in a team environment with SWAT team types in an open enrollment class. But I'm not an idiot. I can tell you with certainty that it would take a good reason for me to try and keep a whole team qualified on two completely separate weapons systems. I'm not seeing that here. If you really need 9mms, consider an AR. Or have guys who always use the MP5. The merits of each weapon are probably a lot less important than each man having mastery of his weapon.

Also consider that the MP5s have .380 ballistics, or near to it, and that the round can't always pierce laminated glass like a windshield.

[dash1]

Also, this transition to pistol idea comes up often and I don't see the point. I am more accurate with an M4 and have much better weapons retention.

If you had to crawl into an attic (the kind without a drop down ladder) or similar confined entryway that requires crawling and climbing, you don't think a pistol may be advantageous for that task?

Transition back as needed.

[Trajan]

Also consider that the MP5s have .380 ballistics...

IIRC that's only on the SDs if you're shooting sub-sonics through it, as the barrel is already ported.

[Surf]

LE, major metro PD. Full time unit, no collateral duties. Old school HK trained fella. We carried the MP5SD as an entry and HK33 as a perimeter set up. About 11 years ago we went the way of the M4A1 as a dual role weapon and now have 10.5's on them. I still have the MP5SD and still teach the platform. I no longer deploy with the MP5SD and have not done so in many years. It is a great subgun but not deploying it even though I have it pretty much sums it up for me.

As for developing policy, as I do that quite a bit, I suggest getting information from as many PD's as possible. Preferable from those with like units, sizes, roles, responsibilities. It is also a big plus to hit up those within your own Circuit, but not a necessity. Also hit up tactical organizations. I always suggest the NTOA site, as you might hit some good contacts, but quite honestly that site has been more than a bit slow for a few years. I am good about sharing info if people hit me up on the NTOA forum as verification is pretty much done in order to access the forum. Username - SSDSurf

[rickmy]

I agree with you as far as attics etc... I was talking about transitioning to pistol for linear assaults which is our current policy.

If you had to crawl into an attic (the kind without a drop down ladder) or similar confined entryway that requires crawling and climbing, you don't think a pistol may be advantageous for that task?

Transition back as needed.

[rickmy]

Thanks for the info.

LE, major metro PD. Full time unit, no collateral duties. Old school HK trained fella. We carried the MP5SD as an entry and HK33 as a perimeter set up. About 11 years ago we went the way of the M4A1 as a dual role weapon and now have 10.5's on them. I still have the MP5SD and still teach the platform. I no longer deploy with the MP5SD and have not done so in many years. It is a great subgun but not deploying it even though I have it pretty much sums it up for me.

As for developing policy, as I do that quite a bit, I suggest getting information from as many PD's as possible. Preferable from those with like units, sizes, roles, responsibilities. It is also a big plus to hit up those within your own Circuit, but not a necessity. Also hit up tactical organizations. I always suggest the NTOA site, as you might hit some good contacts, but quite honestly that site has been more than a bit slow for a few years. I am good about sharing info if people hit me up on the NTOA forum as verification is pretty much done in order to access the forum. Username - SSDSurf

[Failure2Stop]

I have no idea how much experience you have with "appropriate indiduals" but sometimes these folks choose a 45 because it has stopping power and a 1911 because its a specialist pistol. I would like s

I would not consider someone that chooses "a 45 because it has stopping power and a 1911 because its a specialist pistol." to be an "appropriate individual", but rather guys like Surf.
I have time on both systems, but not being domestic LE, I would rather not make too strong a correlation between my use and your use.
If the question is simply; is it worth it to maintain skillset on both weapons, I would say a definitive; maybe.

[Joe R.]

26 years LE experience, 12 on a tactical team, worked for HK International Training Division for 10 years. While I certainly have a soft spot for the MP5 platform the 10 1/2 " M4 would be my choice.

There are several reasons (most already mentioned), terminal ballistics, familiarity with the platform since most of your training is on M4, and you have cans for the M4s if needed.

The only reason I can see for keeping the MP5SD in the training cycle would be if you were using 14 1/2" or 16" M4s (then there would be a more considerable size difference), or if you didn't have cans for the M4s. I would still keep one or two SDs in inventory for those times when you might need a really quiet gun since the M4s even with a can are still loud in certain conditions. (Think shooting out lights, tires etc, etc.)

Hope this helps. Also as Surf mentioned if you are a member of NTOA check out their info sharing section in their forum. I'm no longer a member but I recall they had several studies and posts in regards to this matter.

[Sabre07]

Been doing LE 30 years- been doing SWAT 26 of that. Been assigned Colt SMG, Beretta m12, Steyr 81 & MP5...got off of 9mm SWAT guns a while back. I consider the AR to be heads above the 9mm SMG (any of them) for all of the reasons mentioned.

I know of at least two incidents locally where rounds were fired inside and did not hit the suspect. The 9mm rounds exited the structure and into the perimeter (no injuries, but tense moments). The 5.56mm rounds were contained. The "over-penetration" of rifle rounds is a myth that continues for a lot of reasons.

That said, we have MP5's (SD and standard) still on the team. I have spare MP5's in the safe, no spare AR's. Adding a longer barrel and a stock to a handgun, regardless of its cool factor, does nothing to improve its performance. Our AR's are Colt/LMT 10.5" uppers using Gemtech cans.