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Thread: Barrels: Nitrided Stainless vs. Chrome Lined 4150CMV

  1. #11
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    I should have clarified that I plucked the $500 and $250 figures out of the air to make a point about the cost per shot of barrel life while keeping the math simple

    This is what BCM is charging for their various 20" barrels made of CMV, 410 SS and Ion Bonded SS without bolt-
    http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/20-Rifle-Barrel-s/37.htm

    Prices for BCM 16" barrels-
    http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/16-Mi...arrel-s/38.htm

    Compare that to the price I paid for the L-W barrel with matched bolt and what Superior Barrel is charging for their 20" hard blue with bolt
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

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  2. #12
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    For the price of a Noveske barrel, you could buy TWO chrome lined barrels and find one of them will at least be a MOA shooter.

    I have no idea why people pay the price for Noveske barrels that they do. They're good, but they're not that much better than others out there.

    To me the focus here should be on getting good ammo. Many of the chrome lined barrels are capable of MOA with nice ammo...
    "You people have too much time on your hands." - scottryan

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger89 View Post
    I appreciate your thoughts, and respect your opinions, but I'm looking to go a different direction with this discussion. I'm not looking to be told that I'm over thinking the issue... I'm doing so intentionally. There is a reason I'm considering buying a $550 top tier barrel and then spending additional money having it nitrided, rather than just buying a BCM or DD and being happy. I'm not looking for standard milspec, good enough, or merely acceptable. I want to push the envelope. If everyone was satisfied with the current technology and status quo, we'd all still be shooting muskets.
    Basically we've had this discussion before, and either no one here has relevant empirical data, or it's proprietary and they aren't sharing. If you have the time and money, please, PLEASE do a good scientific test and share your results with us, because we would all like to know. While you're at it, DD offers a CHF, 4150CMV, nitride-treated barrel in the current version of the 18" S2W 5.56 barrel. That would also be a good one to test. If you just want a shooter for actual personal use, flip a coin and enjoy.
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  4. #14
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    A few years ago, Monty at Centurion Arms would guarantee 1 MOA or better from his uppers with quality ammo (give him a call, not sure if he's still doing this). His barrels and that Noveske CHF share the same source... FN.

    You're not gonna have any longevity issues. Let us know when you shoot out your CHF barrel .

  5. #15
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    Good luck getting a Centurion or Daniel Defense barrel.

    And just for reference concerning Centurion stainless barrels.

    We now have RECON barrels. Our RECON barrels are the same as the MK12 barrels but are cut to 16.1in and have a mid-length gas system. These barrels come from the same machines and the same people who make the military MK12 barrels for the Special Operations community. The MK12 barrels are the result of tens of thousands of dollars in development done by the U.S. government to give our Special Operations guys the best weapon system that they can have. We have spoken with many operators who have used the MK12 barrels and carried them in combat and have found unanimous satisfaction with their reliability and accuracy. We currently do a break in procedure on all our barrels prior to leaving so no further break in is required by the end user.

    http://www.centurionarms.net/index.p...art&Itemid=132
    "If force can take away liberty, force is necessary to preserve it. It is the hatred of violence alongside the willingness to use violence that preserves liberty. In order for us to live as free men, we have to hate the violence that takes away liberty, yet at the same time, we must embrace the violence that preserves it. That is the paradox our founders appreciated and made work for over 200 years."

    -Christopher Brownwell

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    If everything else is equal, the lower cost barrel certainly is your choice because accuracy will also be equal. However, if accuracy was your primary concern, why include the chrome lined bore in the discussion? Not that chrome lined barrels offer poor accuracy, but they are generally less accurate than non-chromed barrels

    ...

    I didn't make these points to stop the discussion about nitriding. I gave you these points to give you another angle to ponder. From the initial information given in your first post, my conclusion is that the matter is being over thought. It's simple. You don't have to spend $500 plus the cost of nitriding to get an accurate barrel. I paid $325 to have a 20 inch Lothar-Walther SS barrel delivered to my door complete with bolt matched to the barrel. As bolts were going for roughly $50, that means I got a very accurate barrel for $275 and it will last for thousands of rounds.

    ...

    The fact is, with any well made modern barrel, short of abusing it with mag dumps, it's going to take a pile of ammo to wear it out
    Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. I'm focusing on Noveske mainly because I want a pinned switchblock. This rifle will be run suppressed and unsuppressed. Accuracy is not my primary concern, but it is a main concern. I'm looking for a blend of accuracy, longevity, and ability to take abuse with a smile, if necessary.

    Perhaps I should've included more background info on why I'm looking for information on this topic. I'm beginning a build that I would like to adequately fill everything from a high volume fire/CQC role to a precision role out to 400 meters or so. I've already decided on a 16" "standard profile" barrel (not necessarily the gov profile, but not a pencil and not an HBAR) for a compromise between velocity, mobility, and legal requirements. In addition to accuracy I want the ability to run through two 30 round mags in one minute and then return to taking precision shots at a more moderate pace without worrying about damaging the barrel or permanently affecting accuracy. (I'm not saying this would done regularly, or even often, I just want the assurance of having the capability.) The main purpose of this rifle will be training and my go-to SHTF rifle. If I had to bug out with one long gun, this would be it, so it needs to do everything as well as possible. This is why I'm looking for longevity. Sure, I could probably buy two barrels that will easily last 10,000 rounds for the price of what I'm considering, but I'd rather have one that will last 20k, 30k, or more, and I'm willing to pay extra for it. Minimal maintenance is just as high on my priority list as accuracy and durability.

    I realize I'm going to need to make compromises, which is why I'm not looking for .25MOA from a pencil barrel and expecting it to survive frequent mag dumps for 50k rounds - although that does sound appealing in a world of unicorns and leprechauns.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicious_cb View Post
    Why would you nitride a stainless steel barrel? Doesn't nitriding decrease the corrosion resistance of stainless steel?
    Yes and no. What I've gathered from my research is that the nitride treatment will decrease the corrosion resistance of austenitic stainless steel (300 series), but slightly increase the corrosion resistance of martensitic stainless steel (400 series). Nitride treated martensitic stainlesss is supposed to be equivalent to nitride treated chromoly steel (4100 series) in regards to corrosion resistance, a level that is better than untreated martensitic stainless and hard chrome plating, but less than that of austenitic stainless.


    Quote Originally Posted by markm View Post
    For the price of a Noveske barrel, you could buy TWO chrome lined barrels and find one of them will at least be a MOA shooter.

    I have no idea why people pay the price for Noveske barrels that they do. They're good, but they're not that much better than others out there.
    My reason is two words: pinned switchblock. I realize there are other barrel makes, some arguable better for a similar price tag and some arguable equal for a lower price tag.


    Quote Originally Posted by sinister View Post
    You seem to be the smart guy. Spend your money and find out -- if you shoot that much, that precisely, give us your endorsement. Document and tell us your results -- you'll be speaking from first-person perspective.

    I'm sure we could all benefit, and I'm very interested in your results (especially since cost isn't a factor).
    Perhaps I misspoke when I said cost isn't a factor. I am on a budget, but I have never been one to skimp on quality. I buy sport tires for my economy car, premium fuel (no ethanol), full sythetic oil and premium filters. I'm willing to spend the extra 20% on the product that is well built here in the USA rather than buying the cheaper Chinese counterpart. Given this has always been my mindset (buy once, cry once), and in light of current events, I do not see my go-to SHTF rifle to be anything to skimp on, so I'm trying to expand my budget as much as possible. If it's necessary or beneficial in my mind, I'm going to find a way to afford it.

    I am leaning towards biting the bullet and being a guinea pig with a nitride treated stainless steel barrel, because my assumption is that it will be more accurate than a comparable chrome lined barrel and should last longer than a nitride treated CMV barrel... whether the longevity will be equivalent to a chrome lined, cold hammer forged M249 CMV barrel... well, I don't have the knowledge to answer that question or the budget to test that for myself unfortunately. My main concern before doing so though is the second point in my original post. 1st, I've never used a stainless barrel that wasn't a bull or target profile. I've heard of thinner stainless barrels suffering catastrophic failure due to ruptures from the sulfur content or embrittlement at sub-zero temperatures, although I've never heard of this specifically with AR barrels. 2nd, I'm concerned about the temperature range the stainless steel is exposed to during the nitride treatment and how it affects the temper of the steel.

    I will be training quite a bit with this rifle, but not always with this barrel, so unless the S does HTF I probably won't have any conclusive evidence to report back unfortunately. I do plan to run a very high volume of ammunition through a dedicated .22LR upper though, and I'm leaning toward the CMMG, which is nitrided 4140 steel. I doubt I would ever be able to wear that barrel out with .22 ammunition though. Hopefully I can get some good results on the longevity of the rest of the parts in the lower receiver (geisselle SD-E planned and VLTOR A5 being considered if it will cycle with .22LR).

  8. #18
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    If it was an all out accuracy build I'd probably go with a Krieger single-point cut-rifled barrel, but I'll think I'll save that for the Rem700 build in .308.

    I'm really stuck on Noveske for this build, one way or the other... Unless someone knows where I can buy a pin-on Switchblock separately (not the clamp on one).

  9. #19
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    Are you planning on running suppressed? Is that the reason for the Switchblock desire?

    My standard weight DD chrome lined barrel is a 1 MOA barrel with the right ammo. I am currently testing a BCM chrome lined barrel in a build for my wife and junk UMC ammo went 1 3/8" for 10 rounds. That barrel has potential. Handloads should easily push it under 1MOA. I have a Nitride CMV barrel in 6.8 that shot a 10 round 1 3/8" group at 200 yards last month. None of these barrels cost me over $250.

    I have my doubts that a chrome lined barrel will go 20K and hold anything near 1 MOA, and I have the same doubts that a nitrided barrel will go that far also.

    10,000 rounds is a minimum of $4000 for shit accuracy ammo. A barrel change out is something I can do in under an hour. Once the barrels I mentioned above shit the bed, I'll just throw another one on there. The barrel is so cheap compared to the ammo burned, that I don't lose sleep over whether or not it will run past 10,000 rounds.

  10. #20
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    Decided to take a step back and compare the real world accuracy difference between these two barrels today and dug up this thread:

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=61263

    16" Noveske Recon Barrel:
    Testing was done at 100 yards from a bench rest. A Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification was used for sighting. I obtained three 10-shot groups using one of my standard hand-loads for 77 grain Sierra MatchKings. Those three groups measured as follows:

    0.81”
    0.93”
    1.01”

    for an average 10-shot extreme spread of 0.92”.

    These three groups were over-layed on each other using the RSI Shooting Lab software program to obtain a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for this composite group measured 0.28”. Here’s a pic of the best 10-shot group of the 77 grain MatchKings.
    16" Noveske N4 Light Recce Barrel:
    I performed an accuracy evaluation of my Noveske 16” N4 Light Recce upper following my usual protocol. Testing was performed from a distance of 100 yards. Firing was conducted from a concrete bench with the free-float handguard resting in a Sinclair Bench Rest. The rear stock of the rifle rested in a Protektor bunny-ear bag. Wind conditions were monitored using a Wind Probe. A Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification and adjusted to be parallax free at 100 yards was used for sighting.

    Using hand-loaded, match grade ammunition I fired three, 10-shot groups in a row. The extreme spreads of those groups measured:

    1.29”
    1.18”
    1.31”

    for a 10-shot average extreme spread of 1.26”. I over-layed those three groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for the composite group was 0.37”.

    After firing the above three groups, I fired an additional five, 10-shot groups in a row using the same set-up for a total of eight, 10-shot groups. The average extreme spread for all eight groups was .24”. I over-layed all eight groups on each using RSI Shooting Lab to form an 80-shot composite group. The mean radius for that composite group was 0.39”.
    I think 3 10 shot groups is a pretty valid sample size. Even if this is two specific barrels rather than a sampling of multiple barrels from each type, its still a pretty darn good baseline IMO. 1/2 MOA difference between the tightest group from the Recon and the largest from the Recce, and only 0.17MOA difference between the largest Recon group and the tightest Recce group. I would expect the groups to open up a little with store bought match grade ammo, and even more so with standard grade ammunition, but these barrels are still showing some good accuracy potential regardless, and not much of a difference between the two really. I could see the Recon giving 1-1.1MOA accuracy with off-the-shelf match ammo, and 1.3-1.4MOA from the Recce with the same. Or do you think that's too optimistic? That's not much difference really, even at 400 meters it would only be 0.88"-1.72" difference in group size if my theoretical math is correct. Considering your already looking at a 4.4" group at best, even opening it up to 6.12" isn't much of an issue for torso sized targets, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not going to be taking head shots at that range unless you're dead nuts on your range and windage calculations, right?

    It would still be nice to go with the more accurate barrel if the nitride treatment would make durability equal between the two, but it looks like that's still an unknown at this point. Out of curiosity, has anyone actually shot a Noveske CHF barrel to the point that they've seen any degradation in accuracy? I'm not necessarily saying to the point of being "shot out" or unusable, but just to the point that it's a 2MOA barrel now instead of a 1.5MOA barrel?

    I also dug up some more info from archived threads where a few members suggested that nitrided steel/stainless steel should have a better resistance to abrasive erosion than hard chrome, and we know it has better corrosion resistance, so the only factor in throat erosion we're missing data on is heat resistance/melting point... Ironically its probable the most important factor of the three.

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