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Member
I've been debating which rifle to get next.
I have been thinking about the DTA SRS Covert 16" .308 for a couple of months. I really like the features and caliber change if so desired.
Then I been thinking of a LMT .308 also.
Just trying to see what opinions are out there on both rifles.
Thanks
Senior Member
Mission drives the gear.Originally Posted by MFWIC2
Both excellent systems. Both sub MOA.
If your intellectually honest, LMT has more utility.
I'd opt for an LMT over DTA Covert.
YMMV...
Member
LMT all the way
"I must study politics and war so that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy."
-John Adams
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."
- Albert Einstein
“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
- Benjamin Franklin
Senior Member
Can an LMT be converted from 16" 308 to a custom 30" 338LM or any number of other cartridges in less than a minute while maintaining 1/2 MOA zero on each conversion? I'm pretty intellectually honest, and I see a hell of a lot more utility in the DTA than the LMT.
Even with a suppressor on, the Covert is shorter than the LMT, and the weight is balanced much better.
It really boils down to whether you want ultra-fast follow-up shots and high capacity without disrupting your position, or if a true precision rifle is what you are after. Not that the LMT is not accurate. They are. However, bolt guns will always be able to wring out more accuracy for a handloader due to not having a gas system to contend with.
Each has its strengths. If DTA offered a bullpup semi auto that shared the features of the Covert... that would be pretty unbeatable!
In any event, if you choose the Covert, or would like to ask some questions about it, I'll be here. I can get you into a covert A1 starting at about $4500. + or - depending on options.
Another thing to consider is that if you order a DTA, you likely won't have it until November/December. The good news is that I can get your place in line secured at any time.
Greg Dykstra
Primal Rights, Inc.
Senior Member
Easy day,
I can swap out LMT to 20" or longer barrel and eliminate more realistic threats (under 1,200) w/ complete ease & more tactical mobility while still benefitting from sub MOA accuracy. Then swap to 13.5" or 16" & use for CQB where the DTA Covert is DOA / DRT. I see more realistic application at those distances using one caliber than carrying multiple calibers. Humping only one caliber vs. two.
Another consideration is when you have to learn to train w/ the DTA if your right handed because of the Bolt manipulation on right side as well so shooter must bone up on that system where as LMT has ubiquity of ambidextrous use (especially w/ Raptor charging handle) with support side as well. Your going to have a difficult time convincing me that your as fast at best w/ that method under stress w/ lead etc. hurling by at terminal velocity while Tangos are enfilading. Nuf said.
Now, let's entertain multiple Tangos enfilading my position. Again DTA Covert not as adroit to dispatch multiple Tangos infilading, peeling, bounding overwatch, single envelopment assaulting my position etc. Additionally, was not aware that the DTA Covert had a 20 rnd mag capacity either when precious fractions of a second count when a BoogerEater is slinging lead back at ya.
Funny, just picked up a 20" SS 1/11.25 LMT w/o any wait etc.
Now since you brought up a Can, what's your realistic effective range subsonic ?
That's what I thought.
I'll take a LMT in any barrel length & know exactly what I can do w/ it subsonic vs. hypersonic effective range. Easy day, Win for LMT 13.5" to 24" etc.
Your answer shows your ignorance of Combat & experience on a 2 WAY RANGE being intellectually honest & all that. Happens w/ most bench rest / competition shooters.
Enjoy your opinions & die w/ them not too mention your pimping/schilling for DTA since your a dealer etc.
Know your lane & audience.
Good Luck !
For the OP....
http://www.lewismachine.net/media/magazines/TW-LMT.pdf
Senior Member
Where the **** did you see me saying I was talking about utility IN A COMBAT SITUATION?!?!??!
Not one singular thing in this thread or the OP's question was about combat or a two way range. I hate to break it to you chief, but there is a LOT of things in this world that aren't related to shooting other people. Would do you well to remember that.
Greg Dykstra
Primal Rights, Inc.
Senior Member
I see.
Carry on Orkan, carry on live in your fantasy world. Keep on pimping !
Good Luck !
Orkan writes:
"It really boils down to whether you want ultra-fast follow-up shots and high capacity without disrupting your position, or if a true precision rifle is what you are after. Not that the LMT is not accurate. They are. However, bolt guns will always be able to wring out more accuracy for a handloader due to not having a gas system to contend with."
Looks to me like they had a lot of problems "having a gas system to contend with".
While LMT is not a LaRue (that's not the point) it's still a DI system so much for that hyperbole. Looks to me like there were some Bolt Guns there as well & I noticed they were shooting various targets as well.
See below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGOvqi2T1dc
News - Local - The Bayonet
Friday, Oct. 22, 2010
World's top snipers named
By KRISTIN MOLINARO / kristin.molinaro@us.army.mil
The results are in from the International Sniper Competition held at Fort Benning Oct. 11-15.
The top three teams in each category, as well as the overall winning team, were announced Friday at an awards banquet honoring the competitors.
The overall winners, SFC Edward Homeyer and SFC Chance Giannelli, from the Special Forces Sniper School at Fort Bragg, N.C., scored 1,258 points out of a possible 1,507 during the competition.
SGT Andrew McElroy and SSG Caleb Perkins, of 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment took third place in the open class. Top shooters from across the globe competed in the 10th annual International Sniper Competition, including teams from Taiwan, Canada, Spain, Germany and Ireland.
Thirty-two teams competed this year, including seven foreign, three law enforcement and 22 U.S. military teams. The two-man teams competed in 14 events including a sniper stalk, urban shooting and orienteering exercises, firing under stressful conditions and other tests of marksmanship and sniper skills.
In keeping with last year's competition, the teams were divided into two categories, service class and open class. Service class competitors fired 7.62 mm or smaller rounds as a primary or secondary weapon system, the open class was for teams firing rounds in a caliber larger than 7.62 mm.
Last year's winners were a Marine Corps team from the Scout Sniper School at Camp Pendleton, Calif., which won the service class and the overall title, and a team from the 194th Armored Brigade, which won the open class.
Overall Winners by points:
Team # 26 (D CO SWTG) Special Forces Sniper School
Service Class
1.Team # 26 (D CO SWTG) Special Forces Sniper School
2.Team # 30 USMC Scout Sniper (Camp Pendelton, Calif.)
3.Team # 20 USMC (SSC DET, Hawaii)
Open Class
1. Team # 23 (USASOC)
2. Team # 25 (D CO SWTG) Special Forces Sniper School
3. Team # 19 (HHC, 3/75 Ranger Regt.)
And this too ...
FORT BENNING, Ga. (Army News Service, Oct. 19, 2010) -- A Soldier team from the Army Special Operations Command took top honors at the 10th Annual International Sniper Competition here.
The competition, which wrapped up Oct. 15, included 32 sniper teams, each gunning for the title of best sniper team in the world.
The winning team included Sgt. 1st Class Edward Hoymeyer and Sgt. 1st Class Chance Giannelli, from the Special Forces Sniper School at Fort Bragg, N.C. The two scored 1,258 points out of a possible 1,507 during the competition. They were also the only team to receive a perfect score on the final event of the competition.
"It was an awesome event," Giannelli said. "It was the epitome of sniper competition. Every different country sends their best. It felt great to actually win the event."
"It felt pretty good, it's really nice to go and test yourself," Homeyer said. "It's a testament to our training and the school. On that day, we were the best, but competition was close. We could go out and do it again and someone else could win."
During the competition, the two-man teams competed in a total of 14 events. Those events included, among other things, a sniper stalk, urban shooting and orienteering exercises, firing under stressful conditions and other tests of marksmanship and sniper skills.
In keeping with last year's competition, the teams were divided into two categories, service class and open class. The service class competitors fired 7.62 mm or smaller rounds as a primary or secondary weapon system. The open class was for teams firing rounds in a caliber larger than 7.62 mm.
The 72-hour competition ran virtually non-stop, with only two four-hour rest breaks during its three days, said Lt. Col. J.C. Miller, commander of 2nd Battalion, 29th Infantry Regiment, 197th Infantry Brigade, whose C Company conducts sniper school training.
Six of the events were held at night, and this year's competition included a greater emphasis on real-world scenarios and limited sleep, said event planners.
The added stress and fatigue factors added a new level to the competition not seen in past years, said Master Sgt. Michael Snyder, noncommissioned officer in charge of the sniper school.
"We wanted to simulate what guys are doing in combat. They are going to be tired, getting little sleep and still be expected to do one mission after another," he said. "We are getting more combat-focused."
During the 2009 competition, competitors averaged eight hours of sleep each day of competition, Snyder said. This year, the average was 50 percent less than that, and the schedule was more sporadic -- with many teams catching some shut-eye in the holding areas in between the events.
Some of the more challenging events in the competition -- as cited by several competitors -- included such challenges as shooting on non-illuminated targets at night and the stress shoot, which included a timed run down an 800-meter lane, stopping at various points to fire on targets, collect data and evacuate casualties.
A new event in this year's event was the "loop hole." That event tested the snipers ability to shoot from a third story rafter, through a three-inch hole and strike a target 150 meters away.
"In competition, you will go at a faster pace than you would in combat," said competitor Staff Sgt. Kyle Maples, a five-time combat veteran. "In some situations, you take enemy fire, you are going to get the adrenaline up, you are going to be breathing heavy. So an event like (the stress shoot) is pretty close to simulating what it would actually be like in combat."
Maples competed service class in the competition for the 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division. Maples and his partner, Staff Sgt. Brent Davis, were the only pair to score 35 out of 35 points on the night range estimation event.
"It's more realistic," said Maples, of the combat scenario related events. "A majority of our operations in theater are done at night. Everybody has the saying 'we own the night,' and it's true. We have night-vision capability and the enemy doesn't right now."
U.S. Coast Guard Petty Officer 2nd Class Joshua J. Harris, also a participant, said he was glad to have the opportunity to learn from the competition.
"In every course of fire here, our training and tactics were tested and our weaknesses were exposed," Harris said. "This showed me where I need to work. In observing and talking to the other teams, like the Irish Defense Forces, Special Forces, and others, I learned a few new ideas and little tricks."
Pasadena Police Officer and former Marine, Brandon R. Largent, also felt this competition helped him identify places he could improve.
"This competition has highlighted areas of weakness that I have never fully realized," he said.
Participants in the competition came from the Army, Air Force, Marine Corps and Coast Guard, including teams from U.S. Army Special Operations Command, 10th Mountain Division, 75th Ranger Regiment, Army National Guard and the 1st Marine Division. Additionally, several civilian law enforcement teams participated as well as several international teams.
(S.L. Standifird writes the Joint Hometown News Service. Kristin Molinaro writes for the Bayonet at Fort Benning, Ga.)
Senior Member
Last I checked, that competition was a heavy combination of fieldcraft and rapid target engagements, some of which were from a ****ing helicopter. If I were going into combat, I too would have a semi-auto 308. I'm not ****ing arguing that point. In case you haven't noticed, there are OTHER CONSIDERATIONS for civilians!!!!!
... and if you think I "pimp" DTA's simply because we sell them... maybe you should do a little ****n research voodoo boy. I've been showing people the strengths and weaknesses of those rifles for better than 3 years and we've become a dealer about 6 months ago. Care to try again?
How about if you dispense with the military-only mindset and we start talking specifics? The majority of people in this country aren't going into combat any time soon, and those that are, aren't going to have a singular decision to make in regard to equipment.
Tell me in your experience how a 308 gas gun compares to a bolt rifle of equal barrel length in terms of load development?
How does a LMT 308 do at long range hunting?
Is it a real good thing to be using when trying to take an elk from 800yds?
Is an LMT 308 real clean when used with a suppressor, or does it require more maintenance?
How much does an LMT 308 with 16" barrel weight, and how well balanced is that weight?
If they are the thing to use, why aren't they cleaning up at civilian competitions? Why is it usually bolt guns at the top of the heap?
Or is your entire argument than LMT 308 is used by the military and best for combat... so it's best for everyone?
Greg Dykstra
Primal Rights, Inc.
Senior Member
I vote for DTA. Multi caliber possibilities that can cover everything from short barreled urban shooting to ultra long range.
C co 1/30th Infantry Regiment
3rd Brigade 3rd Infantry Division
2002-2006
OIF 1 and 3
IraqGunz:
No dude is going to get shot in the chest at 300 yards and look down and say "What is that, a 3 MOA group?"
Member
If you want a .308 AR pattern gun, the LMT is a great choice. However, if you want something in a great caliber like .260 Rem or 7WSM, get the DTS. I'm not a .308 fan unless you are talking AR pattern rifles. My vote goes for the DTA especially if you have a 5.56 gun as that covers a lot of ground with all the new .224 cal bullets out these days. Its all preference I guess.
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‘‘Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.’’
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