Strong and Support Hand Shooting Technique

[sboza]

I have always shot one handed with a slight cant that allowed for a natural extension of my arm from a fighting stance. My wrist stays naturally in line with my forearm. I almost lock out my elbow, I ride my thumb high (which with a glock helps by adding lateral pressure, kind of a wedge on top, also is my natural position from the draw allowing easy marrying of my support hand), and I use non-fingertip pressure to close up my grip laterally (slight gap on knuckle side if applying only forward to back strong hand pressure).

This may be hard to picture and it is very difficult to put into words but this shooting technique has been honed over time and I am a very good one handed shooter and am comfortable with strong and support hand only reloads and malfunctions (and the many methodologies to accomplish these).

I heard someone say something about how unnatural it seems to shoot on a cant and how it is confusing for a brain used to track sights up and down. This got me thinking and I decided to try and shoot without a cant. I quickly realized that to go from a slight cant to a neutral cant required dropping my elbow down to maintain wrist/forearm alignment. Feels a bit unnatural (especially support hand since I am eye dominant on my strong side) but that may just be because I only have a few hundred rounds down range doing this. I have found that my recoil control actually improved (possibly since the recoil impulse goes more directly to my shoulder, still thinking about this). Also, my sight tracking became much easier. Straight up and down is much easier to track than angles, especially for folks who are not strongly one eye dominant.

My final issue is elbow bend. For some reason if I extend my arm out to near lockoutwith a neutral cant, my trigger control diminishes (down and right, never happened with my old technique). So I started maintaining a slight bend (downwards) in my elbow. This feels just about right but looks weird to me. I can get my cadence down to about .35 seconds per shot inside a 8 inch circle at 7 yards. A little slower with my support.

My question is, what are the new theories on one handed shooting? What have you as instructors been teaching or from the student perspective, what have you been taught recently? I significantly improved my already respectable one handed shooting ability with some minor tweaks and it makes me curious to know what else is out there (or if what I am doing is counterproductive in ways I don't recognize). Is the neutral cant preferred now? With a neutral cant and elbow down, how much bend in the elbow is recommended (or is near lock-out taught?).

I know instructors are a diverse crew but some thoughts would be appreciated. I hope my post wasn't too tough to follow.



P.S. I spend at least half of my shooting one handed, I have always felt that once basic two hand fundamentals are mastered, this is necessary. Especially since the modern two hand grip allows us to cheat trigger control quite a bit. I've seen trigger control issues creep out of very good shooters when they are forced to shoot one hand and especially under stress.

[YVK]

Ive been doing quite a bit of one-handed stuff lately, so I am interested in replies too.
In general, I get best results with straight vertical orientation, firmly locked wrist, and nearly locked elbow. Last time I timed it, it was about 0.7 splits at 3x5 / 7 yards. I've tried bending elbow, but haven't found benefits. I have also experienced a stoppage or two with "non-rigid" technique.
However, with weak hand my front sight acquisition during presentation is very slow unless I cant my gun. Making a choice between better control on followups vs faster first shot, I chose latter.
So I ended up with vertical hold with strong hand, canted with weak hand, somewhat bladed stance for both (not as important for sho), very locked wrist, nearly locked elbow and very aggressive lean forward. Have to have a very firm grip which of course slows down trigger finger speed, but this seems like unavoidable compromise.

[Redhat]

If you are looking for "the way", I think you've found it and that is what works best for you. Physics may dictate some things but isn't the final answer effectiveness?

[sboza]

Ive been doing quite a bit of one-handed stuff lately, so I am interested in replies too.
In general, I get best results with straight vertical orientation, firmly locked wrist, and nearly locked elbow. Last time I timed it, it was about 0.7 splits at 3x5 / 7 yards. I've tried bending elbow, but haven't found benefits. I have also experienced a stoppage or two with "non-rigid" technique.
However, with weak hand my front sight acquisition during presentation is very slow unless I cant my gun. Making a choice between better control on followups vs faster first shot, I chose latter.
So I ended up with vertical hold with strong hand, canted with weak hand, somewhat bladed stance for both (not as important for sho), very locked wrist, nearly locked elbow and very aggressive lean forward. Have to have a very firm grip which of course slows down trigger finger speed, but this seems like unavoidable compromise.

I should have clarified that when I say bent elbow, I didn't mean an exaggerated amount. I bend it only slightly, about as much as when I shoot two handed (I don't lock out, I raise my elbows slightly to increase top pressure).

But prior to this, when I shot one handed with a cant, I fully extended. In my head, I guess I thought that since I didn't have another arm helping me manage recoil, I would rather rely on skeletal (locked out) vs muscular (bent).

As I said, now that I am shooting with a neutral cant, I seem to have better trigger control with a slightly bent (down) elbow, rather than skeletal lock (again, elbow down). I need more range time to ascertain how well each manage recoil management for me but I will take superior trigger control over marginal increases in recoil control. I just don't understand why I had good trigger control locked out when canted and not so much locked out with a neutral cant. Possible just an issue of getting more rounds down range but I think I will end up sticking with slightly bent wrist neutral cant (comfortable and good recoil control).

You bring up a good point about support hand shooting for a right handed right eye dominant shooter. Getting natural alignment without a cant is impossible since the gun lines up on the other side of the body. I need to decide whether to maintain my cant for support side shooting or to allow my wrist to be out of alignment with my forearm as I drop my elbow and use a neutral cant. Maybe a compromise where I drop my elbow similar to my strong arm and then use a lesser cant rather than pull my wrist outwards (left) to allow natural alignment of my wrist and forearm. Again, more range time called for.

Finally, I don't understand what people mean when people talk about locking their wrist when shooting one handed. If you rotate your hand at your wrist clockwise in circles, then the circumference of the widest possible circle represents lock out points. For example, when shooting two hands, we lock our support hand wrist by pointing our fingers forward and downward as much as possible. This allows a natural stop point for the gun after a shot is fired. I don't understand how you can lock a wrist for one hand shooting unless you are bending your elbow like crazy. Locked means that in one direction, the wrist (and hence the gun) can not move any further. Genuinely curious.

Thanks for the post and hopefully some other knowledgeable folks will be able to post their experiences with instructors or, if they are instructors, what they teach.

[sboza]

If you are looking for "the way", I think you've found it and that is what works best for you. Physics may dictate some things but isn't the final answer effectiveness?

No one is looking for "the way." But shooting is an evolutionary process. The teacup grip works just fine and is honestly way more comfortable than the modern grip. BUT, recoil control is diminished because that grip is the practical equivalent of one hand shooting. Doesn't mean you can't shoot accurately, just that follow up will be slower. So we evolve and over time come to a grip that is not the most comfortable and many shooters have a difficult time adapting to because it allows us better recoil control.

That's just one example, in shooting we evolve our techniques to increase effectiveness. It is possible that every tweak will not work for every shooter. Also, every shooter will eventually have to make decisions based on their body type (hand size, strength, etc...).

Finally, as for the best way, you're right, I think I have found what works best for me given my knowledge base. The reason I am asking is there may be knowledge out there that I have not been exposed to and could give me something else to try as I evolve my one handed shooting grip. For example, as YVK pointed out, there is a difference between strong and support hand regarding grip if you are one eye dominant. That gave me some food for thought and I have a decision to make based on range time and personal preference. That kind of thing helps, your post, not so much. I know where you're coming from and I truly mean no offense but "it's best because it works for you" is a silly thing to say. As for effectiveness being the true measure, I agree. But how do you know that there isn't something out there for you to try that can increase your effectiveness? This type of thinking leads to closed mindedness and stagnation.

[YVK]

Finally, I don't understand what people mean when people talk about locking their wrist when shooting one handed. If you rotate your hand at your wrist clockwise in circles, then the circumference of the widest possible circle represents lock out points. For example, when shooting two hands, we lock our support hand wrist by pointing our fingers forward and downward as much as possible...

Same principle as in last sentence. I want to avoid any rotational movement in my wrist so the gun doesn't flop around. Of course and as you pointed out, you can't lock it forward to the same extent we lock the support hand with two-handed shooting. So, maybe the term lock is misleading. What I do is to exert forward and down tension (same way we do with support hand), but don't allow sights out of alignment. I feel that this tension stabilizes my wrist.

[one]

At the last Vicker's class one segment we ran one handed. Literally everyone on the line was shooting canted. He stopped the class. Called B.S. on what we've all been taught in the past and instructed to go vertical hold.

Ever since then my strong and weak handed shooting has improved dramatically. And I've continued to run these single hand drills periodically since then.

[Jeff Franz]

Hackathorn, like Vickers, teaches the gun vertical for many of the same reasons already stated here. So does Mac. A lot of students complain about it being less comfortable at first, but their improvement in accuracy quickly quiet the protests. For me personally, I point the elbow toward the ground a bit more and put a little more bend in it than I do while shooting two handed. This gives me the best results personally, but everyone is different.

[Ironman8]

At the last Vicker's class one segment we ran one handed. Literally everyone on the line was shooting canted. He stopped the class. Called B.S. on what we've all been taught in the past and instructed to go vertical hold.

Ever since then my strong and weak handed shooting has improved dramatically. And I've continued to run these single hand drills periodically since then.

Can you elaborate on what LAV said about making the gun more vertical as far as technique? Especially concerning OSHO shooting?

With SHO, my gun stays vertical, but with OSHO, I tend to cant the gun to pick up my sights faster with my dominant (right) eye. My accuracy and POI definitely suffers when I cant, so I am looking for a better way, and will be working on being more verticle.

Also, here's a small bit from Jason Falla on the subject:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=107700

[M_Rapp]

Can you elaborate on what LAV said about making the gun more vertical as far as technique? Especially concerning OSHO shooting?

With SHO, my gun stays vertical, but with OSHO, I tend to cant the gun to pick up my sights faster with my dominant (right) eye. My accuracy and POI definitely suffers when I cant, so I am looking for a better way, and will be working on being more verticle.

Also, here's a small bit from Jason Falla on the subject:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=107700

Good stuff guys... This is an area I plan to work on. Any good pictures / videos on this I can check out? Thanks!