They're tow separate sighting systems. I tried to explain it. Read this post then.Originally Posted by jonconsiglio
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.p...8&postcount=16
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Senior Member
They're tow separate sighting systems. I tried to explain it. Read this post then.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.p...8&postcount=16
Senior Member
Right, but if they have the same point of impact, how can you be looking at two different places yet get hits at the same place?
I just read it again, and still think if you have an in-spec rifle, they will cowitness and have the same point of impact.
Anyone doubting this, I just ask them to mechanical zero their removed optic and irons. Zero the irons the dial the optic to the front sight tip looking through the rear aperture and report back if the optic was then zeroed or not when the irons were folded down or removed.
DocGKR and numerous other SME's do this as well. If it doesn't work, then something is wrong with the rifle. It's just not possible for it to not be very close.
It would be similar to saying that my pistol sights are dead on at 25 yards and my laser is dead on at 25 yards, but when viewing through my irons, the laser is not pointed at the same place as my front sight..... Yet both will give me the same point of impact.
Again, I'm willing to take as many rifles as I can get my hands on and film it because it's worked every single time with every rifle I've ever done it with, including other members here. At the end of May, three guys are coming down for some ranch time. We'll do it with all the rifles we bring including mix up some optics if anyone is interested.
Last edited by jonconsiglio; 04-14-13 at 20:16.
Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~ Paul Howe
Senior Member
Yikes! After your discussion with Jconsiglio, do you understand where this is wrong?
Senior Member
I think we're on the same page. I just went a bit further and pointed out that while your irons may be in line, a slight movement left or right, while still viewing through the rear aperture, will move the red dot a small amount. Still, it'll be right about where it should be. That just happens due to movement as it would if the irons were folded down.
Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~ Paul Howe
Senior Member
HMAC, just to be clear, I'm not arguing in any way. I'm always happy to eat crow. I just don't think I will in this case as long as everything is in spec!
But, I'd love for you to go out and do this for me and tell me what happens. I'll redo the two complete AR's and red dots that I have here as well.
I think we're on the same page though. If I'm understanding correctly, you're just saying there may be a slight variance for whatever reason, but it'll still look pretty much close to one of my pics, right?
Edit - I have my blackout right here. I folded the KAC irons into the up position and dialed the T1 down low. It's sitting on the front sight post. But, with the 8 MOA front sight post, my 4 MOA dot (which appears closer to 2 MOA when very dim) is sitting more to the right than center of the front sight. The closer I get to the rear aperture, the more small movement there is if the front sight post is not dead center of the rear aperture.
To be a little more clear - if this was a new optic and I cowitnessed it with my irons that were zeroed, I'd certainly hit the range and confirm zero before ever putting the rifle to use.
To be very clear - - I never cowitness my irons and optic other than to confirm my zero that I already know is true. When I'm shooting, I use on the dot, whether my irons are visible through the optic or not. Just wanted to point that out in case it got lost earlier.
Last edited by jonconsiglio; 04-14-13 at 20:27.
Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~ Paul Howe
Senior Member
If the front sight is canted, the red dot wouldn't be at the tip. It will be rotated away from the front sight in the opposite direction that it's canted.
Senior Member
Yes. Slight variance. The more the rifle is "in spec", the less the variance will be.
Senior Member
Exactly. When I think of cowitnessing for a zero, I think of my pics on the previous page. Maybe an MOA or two to the left or right, but on the front sight.
Mine is more of a dot floating above the front sight because with irons I use a 6 o'clock hold and with the optic, I use a cover-up type of hold, or whatever you want to call it. So, I intentionally set it off from the front sight just the smallest amount.
Oh, one other time I use a semi cowitness is when I'm shooting at distance. Let's say I'm shooting at 400 meters. I'll set my rear elevation at 400 then view the target through my irons. I'll dial down my red dot and it will be held over the target the correct amount (give or take a hair) then I'll fine tune the windage using the dot, if that makes sense.
This one I can't argue because I just have zero experience with a canted front sight.
Last edited by jonconsiglio; 04-14-13 at 20:33.
Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~ Paul Howe
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