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Thread: SBR as evidence question

  1. #41
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    Ben, I understand where you are coming from but...

    If Joe the local Meth Tweaker is in my home at 3AM, armed, and intends to do me harm, what does the nastiness of the wound have to do with the price of tea in China? Joe has a large name file in Spillman, a long history of criminal activity, and I do not. He's got no right to be there, and furthermore is threatening me with immediate, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or serious bodily injury. Otherwise I wouldn't be shooting him, even with a cap gun.

    Joe could have avoided that nasty wound if he wanted to. He could have got a job as a Wal-Mart greeter.

    I've heard good things about the 12ga round that you have mentioned, but it seems to me that if I popped an armed intruder in the head with that round that's going to leave a pretty nasty looking wound too.

    What about the use of "LE" rounds like Ranger and the Federal load you mentioned? Isn't that going to create a potential 'perception' problem as well?



    I think its good that we have discussions like this, so people can make informed decisions and I appreciate your input.

    ETA: is this the Federal offering you are talking about? http://www.le.atk.com/general/federa...lbuckshot.aspx The 8 pellet?
    "So have your buddy get a box of stray cats and try to get a good sight picture while he is throwing the cats at you... naked." - KLD

    Get yours news at Presscheck.org!

  2. #42
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    JLM:

    In a perfect world, I would agree with EVERYTHING you just said 100%. But the sad reality is that most people have no concept of what the reality of a armed confrontation is.

    I do not direct that comment at you but rather the investigator, prosecutor, judge, and jury. If anyone of those four major pieces to the puzzle is flawed, you will be in for a difficult ride.

    As an example to the above, whenever I teach carbine classes I bring a picture book with me. This picture book contains actual photos of armed confrontations involving rifle rounds. Three of the pictures are from an Officer Involved Shooting I was involved in, where I shot a man six times at 10 yards with a 5.56mm M4 carbine. These pictures are exceptionally bloody. I say that because this course is filled with people who are somewhat "switched on", and they are usually quite horrifed at the graphic nature of the photos. That even goes for the cops in these courses. A good portion of LEOs will never see a rifle wound, but will see hundreds of handgun and shotgun wounds.

    Now take the above example and put that into a courtroom where the totality of the circumstances are brought together. Crime Scene photos tell over 50% of the story that the jury will absorb, whether your defense attorney wants that to be the case or not.

    This also plays into the next thing some people have....do you have an 'I love me" wall inside your home. That is a generic question and not directed at you. This is important because that cool picture of you posing with all of your kit on and your SBR at the last class will be brought into court to show how you are a trained killer just itching to kill someone.

    Now take all of the above and throw a suppressor on the weapon you used....now you are really screwed. If I remember correctly...didn't Bruce Willis use a suppressed weapon in Tears of the Sun to quietly kill someone. While you and I know the answer to that and the realities...the jury and prosecutor will not. They will think you are playing James Bond rather than trying to preserve your hearing during the armed confrontation.

    Most people don't understand that the investigators in the case don't always have the final say on who gets charged with what. That defaults to the city/county prosecutor who will look at the report, pics, etc and then decide if they are going to charge you based on the supporting information. Maybe you get lucky with a switched on cop, but you get screwed with a stupid prosecutor who wants to run for mayor next term by being "tough on crime" and your use of an "assault weapon".

    Please do not take the above as my being argumentative on teh topic at all, rather I just hate to see people get jammed up by the system when they could have avoided it.

  3. #43
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    I get where you are coming from, believe me. Like anything in life there are a lot of variables involved. Its wise to consider them all.

    I appreciate your responses, thanks
    "So have your buddy get a box of stray cats and try to get a good sight picture while he is throwing the cats at you... naked." - KLD

    Get yours news at Presscheck.org!

  4. #44
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    Ben- sorry but those were my exact words so you were actually quoting me. I felt the need to reply.



    As with any legal matter, it's a moot point because a jury is always going to be made up of human beings who may or may not judge appropriately.

    I'm sure you've told people that going 60 in a 55 is ok and technically that's more illegal than shooting someone in my own home with my SBR or silencer attached to a gun.

    There's no point in coming in the thread to reiterate what we've already said- to carefully think about whether or not you want the trouble associated with using an NFA item even though it's legal. You definitely seemed to be going one step further than what we've already discussed by telling us or trying to tell us it's still not ok just because there's a chance you can still get in trouble.

  5. #45
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    SuicideHz:

    For starters I have never told anyone that going 60 in a 55 is ok....that is an urban legend and doesn't hold up for squat in court.

    Second...I am trying to give someone factual detailed information on what happens when you press the trigger in a situation as previously mentioned. If you don't want to read it then don't.

    Do me a favor though...before you start pontificating about the realities of these situations, go to law school and practice criminal defense or go to the police academy and work the criminal justice system for a few years. Until you do, you will have no concept of what I described. Reading about it doesn't count and neither does your friend who is a cop and told you all about it.

    Your profile advises you are a Draftsman/Land Surveyor. If you are or have been a cop/criminal attorney then I will gladly apologize to you publicly on the forum. Until then...suck it up and deal or get some experience.

  6. #46
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    If your gonna use a SBR

    Make damn sure you have a suppressor on it, especailly indoors if not you'll be bleeding from the ears..

  7. #47
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    Ben-

    You are not understanding my point. I was simply saying that if you were going to jump in late and repeat everything we've stated, please don't quote me and leave half of what I said out, potentially making it look like I've got no clue.

    You quoted me word for word:
    If the shooting is good, the shooting is good.
    But not all of it:
    You always have to worry about civil court. That's never cut and dry.
    Your area of expertise doesn't give you any more right to holding my opinion than mine does. We've expressed the SAME thoughts in here. You just chose to quote HALF of what I said and then say the other half in your own words to suggest that I and others have only been giving out HALF of the required or correct advice.

    I am not the one making "pontifications" as I've never claimed to be an expert.

    You didn't need to go in my profile to see I wasn't anywhere near as qualified as you. If I were qualified to have my opinion then you would see "manufacturer" under my name, would you not?

    Why do I need to be a "cop/criminal attorney" to say the same thing as you but before you? I do think you need to apologize for being so condescending. There is no reason for the attitude you've had towards me.

    ETA: If reading about "it" doesn't count then you are wasting your breath in here. Quit trying so hard to make me look like some dumb schmuck.

  8. #48
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    Civil Court is the least of my concerns....going to prison is what I would be most concerned with.

    When you get advice about chest pain...do you talk to your doctor or to your landscaper? I am assuming you would talk to your doctor.

    Same situation here...you can talk to unknown people on a forum...or you can get some advice from someone that is openly identifying himself and the reasons for what he has said. I was giving first hand information based on having been in and investigated these types of situations. I am not an expert in anything. Just a guy that has been extremely unfortunate when it comes to being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

    You don't need to have a fancy title to have first hand knowledge of these types of situations. I am sure there are plenty of salty cops on this forum....I know of several myself and they don't have any fancy title.

    You are the one that keeps responding to my posts...I haven't quoted you or identified you once in a post that wasn't in direct response to you. You seem to think yet again that my original statement of "a good shoot is a good shoot" was directed at you. IT WASN'T. I hear people say that same thing all the time, and it bothers me to no end because they are giving themselves a false sense of security.

    Last time I checked, this is an open forum of which we are all members. So are we not allowed to post on a thread if someone has already said the same thing? Because if that is the case there wouldn't be this much activity here.

  9. #49
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    The so-called problem with using any NFA item is that the NFA community wants to stay out of the news as much as possible. ANY time that a machinegun, SBS, SBR, silencer is used in any incident, the press always makes the biggest story out of it as they can and try to make everyone look bad.

    "LOCAL RESIDENT GUNS DOWN BURGLAR INSIDE HOME WITH MACHINEGUN"

    or something to that effect. (I'm nowhere near as creative as the press)

  10. #50
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    The only thing I will add to this discussion, is that the outcome of things like this is VERY, EXTREMELY, and HIGHLY dependent on your location, and can vary wildly from place to place. I say that based on having to give my share of depositions in regards to property/evidence in cases, and as having a close friend who was a State Attorney, private Criminal Defense Attorney, and currently a Circuit Court Judge. For my particular area, choice of weapon is pretty much irrelevant, so long as it is legal for you to have it.
    Protego quod vallo.
    Si vis pacem para bellum.

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