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Thread: How common is it for an upper not to fit a lower?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsaraceni View Post
    If the spec is .5 +/- .004 and yours is -.003 it seems to be in spec though. Correct? I'm going to buy a gauge to see mind. I have a gen 1 and a gen 2 noveske unbuilt. While the situation sucks, I don't see what the company can really do to rectify it. I wonder if noveske's "spec" on the uppers and lowers are a tighter than milspec fit or if its just anything within spec is fine
    I measured that with just my hand-held calipers and applying pressure with my thumb can vary the measurement by 3-5 thousandths. I don't think my number is very accurate. Daniel Defense said that the lower was 0.003" out of spec, considering I got my measurement by applying a lot of thumb-pressure so as to "make it closest to spec as possible", I'm going with DD's armorer. I bet their calipers are a bit better than mine...

    I don't know what Noveske's spec is, they claim it is mil-spec, but they also claim that their lowers only fit their uppers with any certainty, so who knows what proprietary dimensions they go by.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    It's not always the result of an out-of-spec condition, and sometimes you just have to do as Jon says: use a rubber or nylon mallet until things loosen up a bit on their own. If Daniel Defense says that they couldn't even get half a dozen of their uppers to even fit, much less get the point of pushing pins, I'm of the opinion that it's no bueno. Truth is, Noveske lowers are probably some of the most highly-regarded receivers out there, but I've noticed that they don't always play well with other manufacturer's uppers at first. We just went through this with an N4 lower and a BCM upper -- neither of which are exactly run-of-the-mill vendors.

    Granted, the farther you go from the baseline (i.e. billet receivers from various sources), the more likely you are to have fitment issues, but relatively few of these are really as bad as they seem when you are trying to snap them together for that initial mating. Most of these things do indeed work themselves out, provided that you achieved a sufficient degree of panic when you first noticed that you had a problem. It's a bit like losing a set of keys: you really won't stand a chance of remembering where you left them until you start accusing others of taking or moving them. Once you've made a sufficient arse of yourself -- poof! -- there they are, right in the pocket of the jacket you wore on Thursday.

    AC
    I'm not going to accept the blame for this one. If anyone feels that Daniel Defense's armorers are incompetent and couldn't get at least one in over half a dozen different uppers to fit my lower because they weren't panicked enough and made arses of themselves, well I don't know what to say, that sentiment boggles my mind. No amount of "accusing others" or "panic" is going to suddenly make a lower that is out of spec, in-spec, without doing what I would call damage. Damage that Daniel Defense would rather issue a full refund for their upper for than to perform. The facts are this: Daniel Defense stated that the lower was out of spec. Noveske states that their lowers are made to mil-spec. When informed of Daniel Defense's findings Noveske states that their lowers are only guaranteed to fit their uppers and that I am SOL unless I wanted to buy another one of their uppers (the only upper that they guarantee will fit their lower). Ergo, their lowers are not mil-spec, both in word and deed. Caveat Emptor. Learned my lesson. Not pleased.
    Last edited by WS6; 04-27-13 at 18:50.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post

    Most of these things do indeed work themselves out, provided that you achieved a sufficient degree of panic when you first noticed that you had a problem. It's a bit like losing a set of keys: you really won't stand a chance of remembering where you left them until you start accusing others of taking or moving them. Once you've made a sufficient arse of yourself -- poof! -- there they are, right in the pocket of the jacket you wore on Thursday.

    AC
    Very true.
    I have had issues with very tight fit with several LMT lowers and this was even with LMT uppers. I think it's tolerance stacking.
    Last edited by Cincinnatus; 04-27-13 at 18:51.

    "Addressing the problem of shootings by ban or confiscation of non-criminal's guns is like addressing the problem of rape by chopping off the Johnson of everyone who DIDN't rape anyone while not only leaving the rapists' equipment intact, but giving them free viagra to boot." --Me

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cincinnatus View Post
    Very true.
    I have had issues with very tight fit with several LMT lowers and this was even with LMT uppers. I think it's tolerance stacking.
    Three-thousandths below spec and not having a simple upper within reach at Daniel Defense that will fit the lower is a bit more than tolerance-stacking. Daniel Defense never even reached the point of pounding pins from what I understand. The upper simply would not push into the lower.
    Last edited by WS6; 04-27-13 at 19:07.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    I'm not going to accept the blame for this one.
    [pumps brakes]

    I should have been more up-front about the fact that (a) similar upper-lower fit issues come up in discussion here fairly often, and (b) they aren't usually anywhere as dire as what WS6 was reporting. My intent was only to speak to the associated generalities for the benefit of newer or less-experienced members, and not to imply that WS6 was making some kind of mistake. Clearly, that was not the case, and I apologize if I communicated or implied otherwise.

    Given the realities of what was actually going on here (and ultimately confirmed by Daniel Defense), it is little wonder that WS6 is/was fairly frustrated.

    [resumes reckless acceleration]

    AC
    Stand your ground; don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here. -- Captain John Parker, Lexington, 1775.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post
    [pumps brakes]

    I should have been more up-front about the fact that (a) similar upper-lower fit issues come up in discussion here fairly often, and (b) they aren't usually anywhere as dire as what WS6 was reporting. My intent was only to speak to the associated generalities for the benefit of newer or less-experienced members, and not to imply that WS6 was making some kind of mistake. Clearly, that was not the case, and I apologize if I communicated or implied otherwise.

    Given the realities of what was actually going on here (and ultimately confirmed by Daniel Defense), it is little wonder that WS6 is/was fairly frustrated.

    [resumes reckless acceleration]

    AC
    I understand. I felt that your comment (while quoting another) could have been a backhanded slap at me. I accept your clarification and apologize for being riled. Yes, I am rather pissed. I spent 8 months waiting for that first SBR, and paid $2650 for it. Now I am pretty much told told "Well, the mil-spec lower is only guaranteed to fit our uppers...care to buy another?"

    No. I don't.

    So now I bought a complete Daniel Defense rifle. This one: https://danieldefense.com/rifles/pis...e-300-sbr.html

    I am betting it kicks ass and is actually made to spec. However, I am still out over half a year on it when I had hoped to be shooting 300BLK by this weekend with my SBR'ed Noveske lower.

    I suppose what really ticks me off is the back-pedaling about meeting spec within just a few minutes followed by a shill of a sales attempt. It came across as "We're sorry, but would you like more out of spec shit to fit what you already have?"

    Maybe I'm taking my irritation a bit far, but it's like having a new car that chews up the inside of a tire in 500 miles, and you take it back to the dealer for an alignment and a new tire and they offer to knock the other side of the car out of alignment so your tires will match and the car won't pull one way or the other.

    Right/wrong, I have an out of spec lower and the company that made it's only solution was to sell me another upper. No dice. I'm putting them in the same bag as Mark LaRue on my "Do not purchase/recommend" list unless they make a unique small-item product that I simply cannot substitute for or something.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    Three-thousandths below spec and not having a simple upper within reach at Daniel Defense that will fit the lower is a bit more than tolerance-stacking. Daniel Defense never even reached the point of pounding pins from what I understand. The upper simply would not push into the lower.
    I meant in general when an upper and lower fit tight that it is tolerance stacking, not in the case of WS6's issue ; obviously the one is OUT of spec.

    "Addressing the problem of shootings by ban or confiscation of non-criminal's guns is like addressing the problem of rape by chopping off the Johnson of everyone who DIDN't rape anyone while not only leaving the rapists' equipment intact, but giving them free viagra to boot." --Me

  8. #38
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    I just wish DD would have given you the actual measurement, not .003" undersized. If the lower is .497", it is still within the milspec parameters because the spec is .500" +0"/-.004".

    I honestly believe that Noveske runs their lowers on the lower end of the spec so they have TIGHT assemblies with their uppers. Why do I think this? Because, while the Noveske upper I own measures .498" at the top of the upper lug, it measures .495" at the bottom. This means they are slightly tapered, but would fit in your lower (if it's .497").

    If Daniel Defense takes the opposite approach and makes their uppers at the wide side of spec, and their lowers on the big side, you would have the opposite problem...a DD lower on a Noveske upper might be super sloppy.

    Not being an apologist, since I own products from both manufacturers, I just don't think it's fair to blame either without confirming an actual measurement. It's not really tolerance stacking, but rather two manufacturers being at the extreme end of the acceptable tolerance spec.

    I do appreciate you bringing this to the public forum. It's too bad you had to be the victim, but it really brings out the importance of making sure your parts will play well with others before going the NFA route.


    In reality, it is possible to remain in milspec and still not play well with others.
    Last edited by AKDoug; 04-27-13 at 20:40.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 View Post
    I felt that your comment (while quoting another) could have been a backhanded slap at me. [snip] I spent 8 months waiting for that first SBR, and paid $2650 for it.
    Man, I feel bad for derailing things. We were so focused on dimensional issues by the time we got halfway down the page that I totally missed the fact that this was an NFA item. Not that I would ever take a backhanded slap at a member (even in a PM -- just not my style), but I can definitely see where you were left to wonder.

    Given the clarity with which you have now laid this out, yes -- I'd be a bit fanny-chapped over the whole episode myself.

    AC
    Stand your ground; don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here. -- Captain John Parker, Lexington, 1775.

  10. #40
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    Daniel Defense did not supply any data other than what I presented. I do know that their armorers tried to place at least six uppers on my Noveske lower with no success. They stated the lower was out of spec by 0.003". To me, that clearly means below the tolerance range by that margin. Noveske did not offer to even look at their own lower except to put another of their uppers on it and sell me that. Daniel Defense went above and beyond, Noveske kicked me to the curb unless I wanted to give them more money. I think that is at least as relevant as the dimensional issue at hand. It is why I am now a DD customer.

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