Concealment Draw Standards

[warpedcamshaft]

I am interested in gathering some information regarding concealed carry methods, and individual's standards for draw to first shot with respect to different carry methods. I'm looking for info from guys who carry every day, not necessarily a competition oriented concealment draw.

I remember that Kyle Defoor had some info regarding his minimum CCW standards, but I can't find that thread anymore!

If I remember correctly, Kyle's guideline was 2 seconds freestyle from an inside-the-wasitband rig with cover garment(s), and 3 seconds using your strong hand only... all at 7 yards on an IPSC-type target... not 100 percent sure if my memory is correct...


If any willing individuals would be willing to share:

1: Your method/methods of carry.

2: The timed standard you train to for a first shot freestyle from concealment for each method of carry.

3: The timed standard you train to for a first shot strong hand only from concealment.

4: Your reasoning behind your standards.

5: Any other thoughts regarding CCW standards.

I greatly appreciate your thoughts/input!

[sboza]

A 2 second draw from concealment at 7 yards is what I consider a absolute minimum standard. While a three second strong only draw at 7 yards is a good minimum standard also, remember to train strong hand only retention shooting techniques from draw (inside 3 yards). These are more likely than injury, having to control a protectee while drawing on a threat, having something in your support hand you can't drop or throw at the threat to get inside his ooda loop, etc... At least for the average ccw dude whose primary goal should be getting his family and himself the hell out of dodge in MOST cases.

That said, the way I look at the 2 second minimum is that my kit, regardless of season must be able to accomplish this minimum goal safely. I carry in the same position year around but may carry iwb or owb depending on season. I have one method of retrieving my ccw gun regardless of outer clothing including jackets. This means a slightly slower 1/10 sec) during the summer but it is worth it to me for consistency (only for ccw, not a duty rig - that is trained with a standard draw) especially since spring and fall have me switch back and forth between carry method (iwb/owb) and clothing.

At my fastest, I can get my 1st round hit at 7 yards in about 1.3 seconds (under control, not luck). If I use a draw suited specifically suited to my summer carry, I can get it down to 1.2 fastest. ETA - These are not cold times and are not easily repeatable given my ccw setup and ability level. The only relevance is that once you find a comfortable draw speed and get your kit sorted out, it is important to push yourself to be faster. This will allow you to get a grap of your limits. Speed up until you no longer make consistent hits/see your sights and then slow down a bit. An instructor can help you reduce wasted movement which is crucial at this level of shooting. Just remember that on the day, your performance is going to be well below this perfect square range level. That is ok, we train consistency so that we can approach out range standards on that day, not because we think we can replicate them perfectly in the real world. So again, goal is a consistent time, not pushing every shot to be billy badass range hero. That said:

My average draw from concealment with good consistency is just under 1.5 seconds. Sometimes a bit more depending the clothing selection.

Bottom line, 2 seconds from concealment is a absolute minimum standard. If you can not hit that, either you need to improve your shooting ability (take a class) or you need to rearrange/reconsider your gear/gear placement.

I would say 1.7 seconds is a very good standard for the motivated ccwer to shoot for.

Hope that helps.


P.S. I should that whatever standard you choose as your goal, you should be able to accomplish this COLD!

[C4IGrant]

A 2 second draw from concealment at 7 yards is what I consider a absolute minimum standard. While a three second strong only draw at 7 yards is a good minimum standard also, remember to train strong hand only retention shooting techniques from draw (inside 3 yards). These are more likely than injury, having to control a protectee while drawing on a threat, having something in your support hand you can't drop or throw at the threat to get inside his ooda loop, etc... At least for the average ccw dude whose primary goal should be getting his family and himself the hell out of dodge in MOST cases.

That said, the way I look at the 2 second minimum is that my kit, regardless of season must be able to accomplish this minimum goal safely. I carry in the same position year around but may carry iwb or owb depending on season. I have one method of retrieving my ccw gun regardless of outer clothing including jackets. This means a slightly slower 1/10 sec) during the summer but it is worth it to me for consistency (only for ccw, not a duty rig - that is trained with a standard draw) especially since spring and fall have me switch back and forth between carry method (iwb/owb) and clothing.

At my fastest, I can get my 1st round hit at 7 yards in about 1.3 seconds (under control, not luck). If I use a draw suited specifically suited to my summer carry, I can get it down to 1.2 fastest. ETA - These are not cold times and are not easily repeatable given my ccw setup and ability level. The only relevance is that once you find a comfortable draw speed and get your kit sorted out, it is important to push yourself to be faster. This will allow you to get a grap of your limits. Speed up until you no longer make consistent hits/see your sights and then slow down a bit. An instructor can help you reduce wasted movement which is crucial at this level of shooting. Just remember that on the day, your performance is going to be well below this perfect square range level. That is ok, we train consistency so that we can approach out range standards on that day, not because we think we can replicate them perfectly in the real world. So again, goal is a consistent time, not pushing every shot to be billy badass range hero. That said:

My average draw from concealment with good consistency is just under 1.5 seconds. Sometimes a bit more depending the clothing selection.

Bottom line, 2 seconds from concealment is a absolute minimum standard. If you can not hit that, either you need to improve your shooting ability (take a class) or you need to rearrange/reconsider your gear/gear placement.

I would say 1.7 seconds is a very good standard for the motivated ccwer to shoot for.

Hope that helps.


P.S. I should that whatever standard you choose as your goal, you should be able to accomplish this COLD!

Agree with all.


C4

[warpedcamshaft]

A 2 second draw from concealment at 7 yards is what I consider a absolute minimum standard. While a three second strong only draw at 7 yards is a good minimum standard also, remember to train strong hand only retention shooting techniques from draw (inside 3 yards). These are more likely than injury, having to control a protectee while drawing on a threat, having something in your support hand you can't drop or throw at the threat to get inside his ooda loop, etc... At least for the average ccw dude whose primary goal should be getting his family and himself the hell out of dodge in MOST cases.

That said, the way I look at the 2 second minimum is that my kit, regardless of season must be able to accomplish this minimum goal safely. I carry in the same position year around but may carry iwb or owb depending on season. I have one method of retrieving my ccw gun regardless of outer clothing including jackets. This means a slightly slower 1/10 sec) during the summer but it is worth it to me for consistency (only for ccw, not a duty rig - that is trained with a standard draw) especially since spring and fall have me switch back and forth between carry method (iwb/owb) and clothing.

At my fastest, I can get my 1st round hit at 7 yards in about 1.3 seconds (under control, not luck). If I use a draw suited specifically suited to my summer carry, I can get it down to 1.2 fastest. ETA - These are not cold times and are not easily repeatable given my ccw setup and ability level. The only relevance is that once you find a comfortable draw speed and get your kit sorted out, it is important to push yourself to be faster. This will allow you to get a grap of your limits. Speed up until you no longer make consistent hits/see your sights and then slow down a bit. An instructor can help you reduce wasted movement which is crucial at this level of shooting. Just remember that on the day, your performance is going to be well below this perfect square range level. That is ok, we train consistency so that we can approach out range standards on that day, not because we think we can replicate them perfectly in the real world. So again, goal is a consistent time, not pushing every shot to be billy badass range hero. That said:

My average draw from concealment with good consistency is just under 1.5 seconds. Sometimes a bit more depending the clothing selection.

Bottom line, 2 seconds from concealment is a absolute minimum standard. If you can not hit that, either you need to improve your shooting ability (take a class) or you need to rearrange/reconsider your gear/gear placement.

I would say 1.7 seconds is a very good standard for the motivated ccwer to shoot for.

Hope that helps.


P.S. I should that whatever standard you choose as your goal, you should be able to accomplish this COLD!

Excellent post, thanks!

What position do you usually carry? 3:00, 4:30, etc?

[warpedcamshaft]

Paul Howe mentioned in class that he feels a 1.7 second standard is a good performance expectation across the board for duty rigs with retention and concealment with appendix carry or IWB carry at a 3 - 4:30 orientation.

His standards are shot on a target similar to an IPSC target.

[theblackknight]

I wouldn't be happy with 1.7 when dudes are hover -/+ 1.00 .

sent from mah gun,using my sights

[warpedcamshaft]

I wouldn't be happy with 1.7 when dudes are hover -/+ 1.00 .

sent from mah gun,using my sights

Understood...

To what standard do you train and what carry method do you employ? Do you typically train to a 1 second standard using the same gear you carry in?

[ST911]

The 2.0 sec standard at 7yds and in is a good benchmark, for the reasons others post. Likewise, 3.0 sec for SHO. Faster is possible with work. The CSAT standards, Hackathorn standards, FAST, and FAM TPC are good tests to assess yourself and standards to strive for.

(3:00 OWB here)

[Matt O]

I would say 1.7 seconds is a very good standard for the motivated ccwer to shoot for.

P.S. I should that whatever standard you choose as your goal, you should be able to accomplish this COLD!

Agreed on both points.

Assuming we're speaking strictly of strong side IWB carry with actual concealment, not IDPA vests, the target should be at (or ideally sub) 1.5-1.7 second draws. Open front garments can speed this up quite a bit, but I don't know many people who actually carry that way.

For AIWB, 1.5 seconds should be the absolute minimum standard, with 1.2 seconds (or better) or so a more appropriate target time.

[T2C]

Any time I needed a pistol, I needed it in a big, fast, hurry. I wasn't wearing a timer, but I can say that you don't want a carry rig that requires a lot of cat juggling before you are able to present the firearm toward the threat.

Whatever you decide to use for a carry rig should come as second nature when you manipulate it to present your pistol toward the threat. Practice, practice, practice and more practice. After that, practice some more.