"Stopping power" and unrealistic expectations....

**WillBrink** · 04-26-13, 07:53

Originally Posted by tpd223

Sad but true. I know of an agency that traded guns because the Chief didn't want to be "the last place in the state still carrying 9mms".
Yes, seriously.

Well, as we all know, most cops are not gun people as susceptible as everyone else to outdated info and or general misinformation. How about the LEO who argue the 9mm is not effective but carry a .380 off duty!

**Detmongo** · 04-26-13, 10:04

Will,
i used to get that all the time from the old timers would piss a bitch about the .38's but carry small .22's or .25acp and felt that they were carrying enough gun on thier own time.

**WillBrink** · 04-26-13, 10:06

Originally Posted by Detmongo

Will,
i used to get that all the time from the old timers would piss a bitch about the .38's but carry small .22's or .25acp and felt that they were carrying enough gun on thier own time.

Scary no? You can lead a horse to water and all that.

**Detmongo** · 04-26-13, 10:16

i guess they felt they won't run into bad people on thier own time.

**WillBrink** · 04-26-13, 12:54

Originally Posted by Detmongo

i guess they felt they won't run into bad people on thier own time.

I know some LEO who don't CCW at all off duty, and they are not from small podunk PDs either. I don't "get" that one, but their choice as they don't work at a PD that requires them to be armed off duty as policy.

**CDR_Glock** · 04-28-13, 08:33

From the medical point of view there are only two hits can can stop something immediately, the basal ganglia and brain stem. Hemorrhage can take a while to lead to shock and adrenaline can keep someone surviving for enough time to run off, fire off rounds or stab people before they collapse.

A rifle or slug will be more effective than a handgun but shot placement is still important. Look at hunting game like deer. Some can run off for dozens of yards before they drop even with a hit through both sides of the lungs. A hit to the spine will drop him where he stands.

**S. Galbraith** · 04-28-13, 08:48

Originally Posted by WillBrink

I know some LEO who don't CCW at all off duty, and they are not from small podunk PDs either. I don't "get" that one, but their choice as they don't work at a PD that requires them to be armed off duty as policy.

You are more likely to run into people that you have arrested in the small town settings than in the big cities. Been there, done that, on both accounts. I carry a subcompact 90% of the time that I go out, then again, I also try to at least shoot at least a little bit each week to keep my skills as sharp as feezible. Many of our people only shoot during official trainings or qualifications.

That being said, I do not think that entirely shunning the use of larger, heavier calibers for LE use is wise. As Dr. Roberts has pointing out, if he ever returned to uniformed patrol he'd prefer the M&P .40 due to years of generally better terminal and barrier penetration effects. Officer Keith Borders demonstrated the value of using the heavier caliber when he pelted his attacker by bouncing .45acp Gold Dots off the pavement to hit the perp under a car. The 2008 FLETC vehicular shooting study showed that as you increase caliber size and weight, the pavement deflection terminal effects were considerably better. Further advantages are better destruction of internal bone structure, demonstrated by Dr. Lane and Ted Holland in the 1993 FBI wound ballistics study. Obviously, increasing caliber size is simply a "force increment".....not a force multiplier. The only force multiplier with service pistols is precision shooting to directly destroy key anatomical structures. I'll still be a bitter clinger to my larger caliber force increments, and ensure that I am better shot than the other guy.

**P210** · 05-16-13, 12:19

Quote from some FDF manual instructions for using 9mm secondary,

"engage target and keep engaging until targets behavior indicates that the desired effect has been achieved".

Quite bluntly put, but does show some realism regarding 9mm FMJ effectiveness.

**tpd223** · 05-16-13, 19:30

Originally Posted by P210

Quote from some FDF manual instructions for using 9mm secondary,

"engage target and keep engaging until targets behavior indicates that the desired effect has been achieved".

Quite bluntly put, but does show some realism regarding 9mm FMJ effectiveness.

That shows realism reference the effectiveness of anything you can fire by hand.

A heard a WWII vet, tanker type, one each, say they were taught to fire and "keep firing until the target caught fire or changed shapes". That is very good advice for gunfighting too.