"9mm doesn't perform against heavy winter clothing..."

[BurkeB]

So sayeth the head firearms guy at my department.

Quick back-story:
We are currently issuing the Glock model 22's, and have been having nothing but trouble with them(that's a story for another time.)

We are going to be getting rid of the G22's soon, and we might just end up going with the M&P. However, there is the possibility that Glock will be able to do a straight across swap and replace our .40's with 9mm or .45 Gen 4 guns. I personally could see some advantages to the 9mm. Softer shooter and smaller gun for our smaller officers, cheaper ammo, high capacity, holsters and mag pouches shouldn't need to be replaced.

I've discussed this with my head rangemaster, and he has made it clear that he doesn't like the idea of a 9mm. He said that our department tested 9mm years ago and they didn't perform well against heavy winter clothing, which is a concern being in Colorado.

I told him that it was my understanding that newer HP ammo has improved to the point that 9mm will do just fine now, and he mentioned that he spoke with some firearms rep a while back who told him that the newest 9mm ammo is ok, but you have to get +p+ in order for it to work well. My boss doesn't like that idea, and says that will put us back up into the pressure range of .40 cal. and the ammo is more expensive.

We currently issue Speer gold dot for duty ammo, if that matters.

My question for anyone inclined to help me is this:
How well does high quality(gold dot?) 9mm ammo perform against someone in heavy winter clothing, and what load would you recommend (thoughts on the +p+ issue?)

And more importantly, can you point me towards any testing or documentation that I can present to my boss to back this up? (if I just tell him "9mm is fine, the internet told me so", I might not get very far.)

Thanks for the help,
-burke

[S. Galbraith]

There is some truth to it the winter clothing story......but not as your rangemaster points out. The diameter of the hollow point, and size of the cavity determine whether it will be prone to plugging up with clothing which will result in no expansion. Even the newer 115gr loads are prone to plugging up with clothing material, and will then not expand. +P+ or standard pressure.....it doesn't matter. No expansion means that you get an expensive FMJ bullet. Many of the lighter .40S&W and .45acp loads can also have plugging problems. Regardless of caliber, it is a good idea to stay within the middle to heavier weight loads.

[rocsteady]

For a place to start, might show him DocGKR's bio and his experience then from DocGKR's "Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations" https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

"Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's"

[HackerF15E]

This sounds similar to the ol' "the M1 .30 carbine round just bounced off the heavy winter clothing of the Koreans" myth....

[T2C]

Myth.

[Heavy Metal]

Wy not just go to Gen 4 22's? It sems Glock fixed the issues with the earlier Gen .40's with the Gen 4s.

So sayeth the head firearms guy at my department.

Quick back-story:
We are currently issuing the Glock model 22's, and have been having nothing but trouble with them(that's a story for another time.)

We are going to be getting rid of the G22's soon, and we might just end up going with the M&P. However, there is the possibility that Glock will be able to do a straight across swap and replace our .40's with 9mm or .45 Gen 4 guns. I personally could see some advantages to the 9mm. Softer shooter and smaller gun for our smaller officers, cheaper ammo, high capacity, holsters and mag pouches shouldn't need to be replaced.

I've discussed this with my head rangemaster, and he has made it clear that he doesn't like the idea of a 9mm. He said that our department tested 9mm years ago and they didn't perform well against heavy winter clothing, which is a concern being in Colorado.

I told him that it was my understanding that newer HP ammo has improved to the point that 9mm will do just fine now, and he mentioned that he spoke with some firearms rep a while back who told him that the newest 9mm ammo is ok, but you have to get +p+ in order for it to work well. My boss doesn't like that idea, and says that will put us back up into the pressure range of .40 cal. and the ammo is more expensive.

We currently issue Speer gold dot for duty ammo, if that matters.

My question for anyone inclined to help me is this:
How well does high quality(gold dot?) 9mm ammo perform against someone in heavy winter clothing, and what load would you recommend (thoughts on the +p+ issue?)

And more importantly, can you point me towards any testing or documentation that I can present to my boss to back this up? (if I just tell him "9mm is fine, the internet told me so", I might not get very far.)

Thanks for the help,
-burke

[S. Galbraith]

This sounds similar to the ol' "the M1 .30 carbine round just bounced off the heavy winter clothing of the Koreans" myth....

There is always a little truth somewhere in the myths. The 110gr military ball load up until the 1970s(redesigned for IDF standards), utilized a reduced o'give resulting in a ballistic coefficient of only .15. I guess the idea behind this was to make a more blunted nose and improve terminal effects. This put the load in the realm of handgun ammunition velocity degeneration at range. At the higher altitudes in Korea, during the subzero temperatures, and at extended ranges......the M1 Carbine's performance was greatly reduced. At 300-400 yards, the 110gr load was cruising under 800fps. I didn't want to damage my chronograph, but at 300 meters I was shooting 1/4" plywood and I would find the projectiles laying on the surface of the burm behind the plywood. No keyholes in the plywood, but greatly reduced velocity.

Even at closer ranges though, the bullet profile didn't allow for a rapid upset. So just like all other handgun cartridges, it just poked holes.... .30 caliber holes. Probably why the carbine and its cartridge didn't last long in the US military, and the millions of carbines in the service were sold off to the civilian and LE markets. Not to mention they ended up in the hands of the Israelis and Vietnamese.

[tpd223]

One, we issue the 124gr +P Gold Dot here, and even through some seriously heavy clothing we have never had a bullet fail to expand.


Second, the .30 carbine thing is a myth. At ranges that you can actually hit people with a carbine that bullet is going though heavy clothing, the man wearing it, and out the other side.

My dad fought in Korea and noted that all of the stories he heard about how bad the carbine was were, in his humble opinion, mostly related to guys missing. Since between Korea and Vietnam he had shot a lot of people using a carbine I listened to his opinion.

[Pilot1]

You may want to look into Hornady's new Critical Duty 9MM ammo. The hollow point cavity is filled with polymer, and designed to penetrate heavy clothing, and other obstacles before it expands.

http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-Duty/

http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-DUTY-New

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

My wife's department just upgraded to gen 4 glock 21, its a huge upgrade over the gun they had. However I know what your talking about in regard to dealing with the "RANGE MASTER". Her department is around 1k officers strong and to be a range master/shooting coach, guess what the requirements are............ shoot a 95 out of 100 and at a yearly qual, yep that's it your an expert, now go teach everybody else. Needless to say we both know where that leads. Best of luck convincing him, I might suggest covertly giving the chief the info. I would rather have the 22 myself and not a gen 4 i good sized hands and I consider the pistol a tad on the large side.