Police traffic stop firefight in Ohio

[Failure2Stop]

Just went back and purged the thread of needless bickering.
Let's get back on topic.

[T2C]

What are the differences between standard training and the training you do for defensive/work? What are your favorite drills?

Drawing from concealment, more than two shots in rapid succession and movement during firing are basic bozo-no-no's at most ranges anyways, so unless you can find some free land or an understanding club it seems to me most interesting drills are verbotten.

I have access to two gun clubs during low use hours and I have the latitude to teach people to shoot on the move, from vehicles, under barricades, at night, etc.

I hate to appear unhelpful, but you never know who is reading these threads. I would rather not post a drill, so someone can train to fight against it. I can tell you training is based on what was learned by analyzing 30 years of LEO gun fights in our region.

I will tell you that if an officer has $200 to spend on ammunition, I recommend they spend $120 on ammunition and $80 on a decent pair of running shoes. Being in shape is just as important as trigger time to maintain firearm proficiency under stress. I am also a huge advocate of performing daily dry fire drills.

Analyzing shooting incidents helps to develop lesson plans geared to train officers to fight back and take the momentum during a violent encounter. Unfortunately a lot of the small agencies do not have the time, money or experienced personnel to provide up to date training, so the retired old grumps have to step in and help. A few days of my time every month and a few bucks out of my pocket is worth it to me.

I tip my hat to the Ohio officers who fought back and won. The bottom line is that they won and survived the encounter.

[WillBrink]

That is why I suggest we all must strive to be better, or as good as possible. It is very unlikely that anyone will hit every shot in such an engagement but the effort must be toward hits.
That is why so many instructors stress the concept of accuracy before speed or that you can't miss fast enough.

80/20 hit to miss seems an illustration of the need for that training focus.

Every LEO I know who takes their shooting seriously, some of whom have been in OIS and came out on top, would agree to a man.

I have no doubt the LE here will confirm that and not arguments from me.

But, one still needs to appreciate LE can face encounters (per vid) very few non LE will ever face, and until you walk a mile in those shoes (which I have not), essential to keep it in context of what's reasonable to expect.

Not my area of expertise, but considering the speed at which it happened and the firepower sent their way, etc, what would one expect for a hit ratio? That's a legit Q I'm asking of the members here who have the background for it.

I'd be interested to hear their opinions there.

[WillBrink]

Very true. Cops are targets. Out of the thousands of occupations in the country we come in at the 12th most dangerous. Also with all the anti government tinfoil stuff lately it seems its even more dangerous as the nut jobs see us as the government and the cause of all their woes.

Can't speak for others, but I have seen what I have seen, and for me, the thin blue line is not a metaphor. That vid shows it in spades.

[WillBrink]

Its worse on the east coast with hit ratios being 10 to 15% and on the west coast its from 25 to 30%. Don't have the source handy was from a training about 10 years back.
Pat

In the NE "guns are bad" even for the police. That's the mentality.

[T2C]

Not my area of expertise, but considering the speed at which it happened and the firepower sent their way, etc, what would one expect for a hit ratio? That's a legit Q I'm asking of the members here who have the background for it.

I'd be interested to hear their opinions there.

I would expect the hit ratio under these circumstances to be very low for an officer without SWAT training or practical military experience.

Some questions were asked about the LEO firing shots from inside the vehicle. I train officers to use the vehicle as a weapon if they are in the driver's seat. You have to be able to remember under stress to use the vehicle as a weapon and a lot of officers use their service pistol because that is the way they are trained.

I was not there when the incident occurred and I am in no way criticizing the officers involved in this incident. They were trained to fight back and they did. Bravo Zulu.

[WillBrink]

I would expect the hit ratio under these circumstances to be very low for an officer without SWAT training or practical military experience.

Some questions were asked about the LEO firing shots from inside the vehicle. I train officers to use the vehicle as a weapon if they are in the driver's seat. You have to be able to remember under stress to use the vehicle as a weapon and a lot of officers use their service pistol because that is the way they are trained.

I was not there when the incident occurred and I am in no way criticizing the officers involved in this incident.

Now that's an interesting point. 3000+lbs of metal makes a hell of a weapon, and launching the car at him might have been their fastest response, neutralized the threat, or gotten them out of the line of fire quickly.

Just thinking out loud, as you state: I was not there when the incident occurred and I am in no way criticizing the officers involved in this incident

Any LE here taught that using the car as an option for stopping the threat?

Side thought: Can you imagine the hysteria and hand ringing that would have taken place if the vid had shown them running him over with the patrol car! Epic.

[Failure2Stop]

Now that's an interesting point. 3000+lbs of metal makes a hell of a weapon, and launching the car at him might have been their fastest response, neutralized the threat, or gotten them out of the line of fire quickly.

Just thinking out loud, as you state: I was not there when the incident occurred and I am in no way criticizing the officers involved in this incident

Any LE here taught that using the car as an option for stopping the threat?

Side thought: Can you imagine the hysteria and hand ringing that would have taken place if the vid had shown them running him over with the patrol car! Epic.

Using the vehicle as a weapon is pretty common in certain circles, but I have never heard about its use inside the US by LE agencies.

The "stopping power" of an automobile is orders of magnitude higher than anything man-portable that doesn't point-detonate.

Curious as to how that kind of lethal force is viewed in US courts/LE policies. I have no issue with it, just curious.

[T2C]

Using the vehicle as a weapon is pretty common in certain circles, but I have never heard about its use inside the US by LE agencies.

The "stopping power" of an automobile is orders of magnitude higher than anything man-portable that doesn't point-detonate.

Curious as to how that kind of lethal force is viewed in US courts/LE policies. I have no issue with it, just curious.

Once a situation merits the application of deadly force, the mechanism is a minor issue. You are using a device that will inflict great bodily harm or death to stop a lethal threat. An officer would be in good standing with the courts in my area.

[Failure2Stop]

Once a situation merits the application of deadly force, the mechanism is a minor issue. You are using a device that will inflict great bodily harm or death to stop a lethal threat.

Understood.

I've been trained on it, know plenty of dudes that have used it, and agree with it. I'm just curious as to how it stands up in court/review and how that effects policy.