Police traffic stop firefight in Ohio

[mike240]

The hit ratio is always brought up and criticized in police shootings. I understand since no one wants rounds strewn about their neighborhoods endangering citizens. Many with mil training and experience think mil does it better. Those of in LE in most cases see it different. I used to be shocked at the recently seperated Rangers, Recon etc guys that came to work as cops that were horrible shooters and poor gun handlers. But how many millions of rounds have been fired in Iraq and Astan compared to the hits made?

People move and do things in a fight that targets cannot recreate for training. Fx training is good but also time consuming and expensive. The other thing about training is that no matter how dynamic, students know they cannot get hurt. This fact does effect how and what they do and to what level it is done. The reality of real lethal fire coming your way can effect true performance and decision making.

You hope that Fx type training will desensitize officers through repetition and improve performance under the real world stress of such encounters. But the mindset and level of seriousness in training is invaluable.

[T2C]

Understood.

I've been trained on it, know plenty of dudes that have used it, and agree with it. I'm just curious as to how it stands up in court/review and how that effects policy.

I discussed this with State's Attorneys in my region before training officers to consider using the vehicle as a weapon during a deadly force incident. Unfortunately, I do not have any case law on this.

I also train officers to use the vehicle to penetrate barricaded doors during rapid deployment incidents, especially at schools when an active shooter is involved.

[CoryCop25]

Using the vehicle as a weapon is pretty common in certain circles, but I have never heard about its use inside the US by LE agencies.

The "stopping power" of an automobile is orders of magnitude higher than anything man-portable that doesn't point-detonate.

Curious as to how that kind of lethal force is viewed in US courts/LE policies. I have no issue with it, just curious.

I was involved in an incident two years ago where we were all at the right place at the wrong time and happened to be very close to a bank during a robbery.
As the suspects exited the bank, one of our units were actually in the alley behind the bank. As that unit began to chase the fleeing vehicle, the suspect in the back seat began shooting at the officer behind them. Both vehicles were still moving and the officer was not able to return fire faster than he could ram the suspect vehicle. Because the vehicle was a Ford product, when the suspect vehicle was hit, it engaged the emergency fuel pump shut off and the vehicle came to a stop in about two blocks.
The armed suspects fled and one of the other officers ran one of the suspects over, taking him out of the fight. The other police vehicle (Expedition)was disabled by the gunfire. The shooter was being chased on foot by my partner and when I came around the corner of the building and got the drop on the shooter, he quickly decided that he could not swing his S&W Sigma around fast enough to take on my 5.56. He quickly surrendered himself and the waste in his colon.
My county's district attorney is totally against any vehicle contact for any reason unless deadly force is justified. He was totally ok with how this incident was handled.
http://emmaus.patch.com/articles/knb...suing-suspects

[Alaskapopo]

The hit ratio is always brought up and criticized in police shootings. I understand since no one wants rounds strewn about their neighborhoods endangering citizens. Many with mil training and experience think mil does it better. Those of in LE in most cases see it different. I used to be shocked at the recently seperated Rangers, Recon etc guys that came to work as cops that were horrible shooters and poor gun handlers. But how many millions of rounds have been fired in Iraq and Astan compared to the hits made?

People move and do things in a fight that targets cannot recreate for training. Fx training is good but also time consuming and expensive. The other thing about training is that no matter how dynamic, students know they cannot get hurt. This fact does effect how and what they do and to what level it is done. The reality of real lethal fire coming your way can effect true performance and decision making.

You hope that Fx type training will desensitize officers through repetition and improve performance under the real world stress of such encounters. But the mindset and level of seriousness in training is invaluable.

I shoot with a fair number of active army soldiers in three gun. I will say up here at least the average soldier is a bit better with an AR than the average cop and the average cop is much better with a hand gun than the average soldier at least the ones I have seen at the matches. The reason being soldiers get almost no time on pistols unless its in their specific job duties but they fire their rifles a lot more. The shotgun also tends to favor the cops. That said neither group is as good as they should be and both groups get out shot but avid three gunners. That being said the best shooters at my club are my best friend who is an E7 in the Army and myself who is a LEO.

[NCPatrolAR]

When you have a suspect shooting at you while you are seated I don't see where an issue could arise if you struck the suspect with the vehicle. Lethal force is lethal force and there aren't stages of dead that we can make someone. Remember Graham v Connor



There's a few stories floating around of LEOs being used to hit violent offenders. A lot of guys don't think about doing it though

[T2C]

I spoke with a motorcycle officer from a local agency a few days ago. Without my asking, he said that he recently completed his annual recertification and this issue came up during training. Another officer asked what he should do if a subject exits his vehicle with a firearm and engages the officer. The chief instructor pointed out that the motorcycle provides almost no cover during a gun fight. The chief instructor recommended running over the armed subject if a motor officer is still seated on his motorcycle and the engine is still running when he is attacked.

In most instances, a LEO using a motor vehicle to ram a suspect is frowned upon in my area. I believe that this type of incident would be an exception. If I were on a Grand Jury hearing a case where an officer ran over a subject with his squad car when the subject attacked him with a firearm, I would not vote to indict the officer.

[rathos]

You also have to realize they were doubled up in the car. The first thing I do when doubled as the passenger is jump out and cover the car until my partner can get out to make contact and vice versa. So if the second officer is out of the car if you decide to take off with it you are leaving them high and dry without any cover.

We have also been taught not to get caught in the "metal coffin" as there isn't a lot of places to go inside the car and most of our fleet has ballistic panels in the doors.

When you have a suspect shooting at you while you are seated I don't see where an issue could arise if you struck the suspect with the vehicle. Lethal force is lethal force and there aren't stages of dead that we can make someone. Remember Graham v Connor



There's a few stories floating around of LEOs being used to hit violent offenders. A lot of guys don't think about doing it though

[Hmac]

I shoot with a fair number of active army soldiers in three gun. I will say up here at least the average soldier is a bit better with an AR than the average cop and the average cop is much better with a hand gun than the average soldier at least the ones I have seen at the matches. The reason being soldiers get almost no time on pistols unless its in their specific job duties but they fire their rifles a lot more. The shotgun also tends to favor the cops. That said neither group is as good as they should be and both groups get out shot but avid three gunners. That being said the best shooters at my club are my best friend who is an E7 in the Army and myself who is a LEO.

Can't draw any conclusions from this since neither the average cop nor the average soldier shoots firearms in any kind of competition. Those guys are "firearms enthusiasts". Average cop/average soldier is not.

[NCPatrolAR]

So if the second officer is out of the car if you decide to take off with it you are leaving them high and dry without cover.

This is something that should be discussed when partnered up. While using the car as a weapon can remove 1 aspect of cover from the outside officer, it should provide him a window of opportunity to move to a better position or at least get fire shifted away from him

[CoryCop25]

I have watched this video several times and every time I watch it the hair on my neck stands up. I have been trying to put myself in the car with them. From what I have heard, they are watching the movements in the vehicle and discussing what to do. From the chatter on the radio, it seems like they were waiting for people to stop chatting to call off on the traffic stop. It seems that the driver opens the door of the car to approach and tells the female officer to call the car stop off on the radio when the air clears. As soon as the male officer gets out, the suspect gets out and engages.