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Thread: Do you "Muscle" or "Over Grip" the pistol?

  1. #1
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    Do you "Muscle" or "Over Grip" the pistol?

    I have had several conversations as of late on this very topic. With my latest video (Concealed Carry Shooting). I have received several questions that are again in regards to the same or similar topic. I decided to answer one individuals question directly but decided to share it as it answers several related questions that I often get. His particular question or issue was something similar to my own experiences and those I tend to teach. He is a larger framed guy like myself and he invariably ends up with a lot of muscle tension and he finds himself "crushing" his weapon and using his mass to combat recoil. Now I understand that everyone is not the same and that we all have different takes on things. What follows in my reply is my own personal take on the topic and what I have found to work well for myself and others who have this issue.

    Boy do I know what your talking about all too well! You and your friend have hit on one of the million dollar questions. My student base is predominantly larger, muscled, tightly wound up guys so this is something that is very common for me to deal with. Also as you mention I am dead guilty of "muscling" the firearm around because of the mass that I can put behind it and this really is only a good thing on limited occasions. Pure technique is generally better. In my video comparison of the BattleComp vs the Bravo Company Comp one of my main instructors is in the video. The tall, leaner guy in green with big arms. Even to this day in rapid strings of fire he can get wound up tight, start muscling the weapon, over gripping and pushing shots badly. With a Glock he has a pronounced low left push as a right hander when he muscles the gun which is common.

    A few key things may start to happen when you "muscle" the weapon and can cause low or low right / low left impacts. You will generally see guys roll their shoulders way to much and they will start dipping their head badly. This very much starts to disrupt a natural point of aim. I know natural point of aim is a big thing with a rifle, but it very much applies to handguns, especially in a highly trained shooter who has a natural point of index when pointing the weapon or when reaching full extension. Under little stress you get one spot where the weapon will index, under higher amounts of stress when you "scrunch up" with a lot of muscle tension it is not uncommon to get a lower index spot. Also these guys generally fatigue way quicker in their traps and neck area due to their muscle mass and continually flexing that area. Shoulder, head, neck stress / fatigue leads to all kinds of shooting issues.

    Another issue is that guys will start "crushing" or "over gripping" the pistol especially with their support hand. The support hand and the fingers can start torquing the the bottom of the frontstrap of the grip which starts to rotate the muzzle downward. This tightening of the grip can also very adversely affect the shooters trigger control and can commonly cause, low / right / left issues.

    Another thing to look for is something that I call "post ignition push". It might be looked at like a flinch and kinda is, but it really isn't a startle or negative reaction to the gun going bang. A "post ignition push" is where generally a good shooter, is shooting rapid strings of fire and is attempting to control recoil to the point that they are pushing forward on the weapon in order to rapidly return the muzzle back to POA after the muzzle lifts. You might see this in a good shooter who is going to shoot a rapid string of fire and has a click on the first round and the muzzle has a pronounced dip. Now I am not saying that this technique should be adopted or is necessarily a good thing either. It may look just like a flinch to many, but if you examine it closely it is different. I find that shooters who like to "muscle" tend to show the "post ignition push" more frequently. So some shooters who exhibit this "post ignition push" can indeed get caught up with a timing issue and place rounds low.

    So how do we fix it? RELAX. Sounds simple and it is when you practice it enough. This may sound a little weird as I describe this, but hang with me. When I find guys on the line showing these signs, muscles tensed, head scrunched down, crushing the pistol, you can generally place a hand on their shoulder or trap and they feel like a spring about to snap. I will have them halt their shooting, lower their weapon with arms at extension, pretty much weapon hanging. I tell them to look up, head back, relax and close their eyes as they breathe and relax their muscles. I tell them to remain relaxed with their head back (looking up). I will keep one hand on their shoulder / trap to feel if they tense up. With my other hand I will raise their arms and pistol up to extension without them tensing up. I will then have them drop their head forward and open their eyes. Their head and neck are more erect and their shoulders are not tensed.

    This is what I initially have them try to replicate. I will have them slow fire, completely relaxed (say a one hole drill). Then on a cadence I have them shoot strings of fire and gradually increasing their cadence on the strings as I closely monitor. They will slowly but surely start to assume a more correct upper body position / tension as the cadence on the strings of fire increase. When they hit the sweet spot for the correct upper body (head, neck and shoulder) position. This is where I stop them and have them repeat that exact cadence to start learning that correct upper body position / tension. Once they get that feeling correct, their strings of fire can progress naturally. But of course this may take a long time of re-learning and must be watched closely. A good shooter can notice this in themselves, relax, take a breather or a break and get back at it, but more relaxed.

    Now I will have them work on presentation from the draw. Another key thing to remember or practice is to let the weapon or muzzle dictate where your motion stops at extension. Let the weapon stop itself. In other words, don't violently push it forward with a lot of muscle tension. This will invariably dip the muzzle when the weapon more violently hits that point of extension. You will have bad results especially if you are prepping the trigger on the extension and trying to time the shot breaking when hitting extension.

    How do I fix this one? I often talk about pointing a finger at an object and how we can naturally accomplish this. I will have the shooter holster their weapon. I will have them stand very relaxed, hands on their hips on their sides about belt line. I will tell them to point at an object. Continue to have them do this several times at various things. Stand up and do it yourself right now as a matter of fact. What do you notice? Your finger comes up to your line of sight and stops almost naturally on target. You don't need to violently "punch" your finger out to the target. Your finger knows where to go to hit extension while relaxed and be naturally on target without any excess movement. Now put a pistol in your hand (unloaded of course) and index your finger straight on the frame and just start pointing, starting from the hip. Don't think of the pistol and the sights, think about pointing your finger at something. The body will do its job when pointing. It knows where extension is with your arms and you don't need to "punch" your finger or weapon out to extension. It will soon get their more quickly on its own, with better reliability / repeatability and better accuracy on target.

    If you notice in my video, I tend to stand more erect and remain more relaxed prior to the buzzer. A relaxed muscle can react and move faster then one that it tensed. Kinda like a flinch. Nothing beats that muscle speed. You will often see shooters "set up" in a stance prior to a quick draw or rapid string of fire. They will have a forward lean, shoulders forward and they will already have too much muscle tension. This IMO slows you down. Try to remain more relaxed. I will also note that I try to keep things consistent in my set up and presentation no matter the distance I am shooting at and they look the same if I am at 5 yards or 50 yards. Many people let distance to the target mess with their mind. Also start using buzzers, reduced size targets, small circles, small hit zones and you will often see people change how they set up and alter their presentation. Like "I am more ready now". Added pressure of a buzzer, distance, speed or reduced hit zones can completely change how a shooter approaches the situation. Consistency is key. You might take longer on the sights to see what you need to see, to get the hit you need to get, but be consistent in everything else.

    Sorry about the Novel, but this really is an in depth topic. Let me know how things work out!

    Aloha,
    Surf

  2. #2
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    You will generally see guys roll their shoulders way to much and they will start dipping their head badly
    I refer to this as "tactical turtle". All my control comes from forarms. Tight back and shoulders can kill your SA and target/weapon transitions are slow as a result.

    Knock out article dude!
    Last edited by theblackknight; 05-09-13 at 16:33.

  3. #3
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    Great write-up Surf. Ill never forget my first rifle class, I was so tense my back felt like I pulled a muscle for the next few days. Figured that couldnt be normal. /eta - great cc shooting at 50 yards too!

    Last edited by sadmin; 05-09-13 at 17:21.
    Matthew 10:28

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    Unhappy

    I am for sure guilty of this.

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    Great topic and outstanding information! I certainly allow myself to tense up too much when shooting rapidly. I feel that fatigue in the traps and shoulders for sure. I especially like the "post ignition push" concept. I'll be watching for these things much more closely now. Thanks for posting.

  6. #6
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    Good stuff, Surf.

    In addition to resetting gear and hydrating on breaks, I like to take time to do some deliberate stretching. It helps keep the muscles loose and work out some of the accumulated tension, esp on a long training day.
    2012 National Zumba Endurance Champion
    الدهون القاع الفتيات لك جعل العالم هزاز جولة الذهاب

  7. #7
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    I'm actually pretty guilty of this from time to time. Thanks, Surf!
    We miss you, AC.
    We miss you, ToddG.

  8. #8
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    Are you describing the Zen moment when you become like a leaf on the wind Surf?
    My brother saw Deliverance and bought a Bow. I saw Deliverance and bought an AR-15.

  9. #9
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    Great write up. I attended a Haley Strategic course last week and the way that Ron Avery demoed it was with a cup of water. He would bring it up to his line of sight and the goal was to not spill the water. They were saying essentially the same thing as written here but I figured I would post that for another way of looking at it.

  10. #10
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    Post Ignition Push- Yep, that's me. However I wrote it off as a flinch. What you wrote will help me deal with it better when it starts kicking in.

    Thanks Surf
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

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