Do you "Muscle" or "Over Grip" the pistol?

[Ironman8]

Awesome Surf! Very well thought out, well written, and so much of it spoke to me. Muscle tension, post ignition push, and "punching" the gun out too violently are my hot topic issues...yeah I'm all messed up! I will be working on this.

Also, I think the whole "combative pistol stance" with the rolled shoulders, hunched back, and scrunched head is one of the main reasons I tense up. Sounds like you prefer more of a upright position to keep muscles relaxed.

Something I've been noticing, and noticed yesterday, is that my first few shots of the day seem to be my best. I'm not tense, I'm not trying to beat my previous times on the shot clock, ect. I'll just have to remember to relax throughout the session.

Here's a follow on question...in your experience, even if you train this way and get it right during training, will you revert back to the tense and scrunched position when lead actually starts flying both ways? Or will you be able to keep your fluidity/looseness through the stress of that life or death situation?

Thanks for taking the time on this!

[Surf]

I refer to this as "tactical turtle". All my control comes from forarms. Tight back and shoulders can kill your SA and target/weapon transitions are slow as a result.

Knock out article dude!

Thanks! I think I might steal the "tac turtle" line.

Are you describing the Zen moment when you become like a leaf on the wind Surf?

In essence, yes.

Great write up. I attended a Haley Strategic course last week and the way that Ron Avery demoed it was with a cup of water. He would bring it up to his line of sight and the goal was to not spill the water. They were saying essentially the same thing as written here but I figured I would post that for another way of looking at it.

I have never heard the draw in reference to the cup of water analogy, but I do use a glasses of beer analogy in shooting on the move, like rushing back to the table from the bar when the game starts back up and carrying glasses of beer, moving quickly but trying not to spill them. But then again, I am not overly familiar with Mr. Avery, in that I have never met or trained with him.

Post Ignition Push- Yep, that's me. However I wrote it off as a flinch. What you wrote will help me deal with it better when it starts kicking in.

Thanks Surf

Some say the end result in a flinch and the other phenomenon of what I call the "post ignition push" is the same thing. While similar they can be treated differently in how an instructor or a shooter might address the situation. A flinch is a negative or involuntarily physiological response of the body that imparts a negative influence onto the weapon. While the "post ignition push" generally starts as a conscious response by the shooter to shorten time of recoil, however via training it can quickly ingrain itself into the subconscious as a normal or subconscious response. While not always bad, at the subconscious level is when things can get sticky when problems develop because it is rooted.

The key to a good instructor is to be able to identify the issue and make the correct assessment. Then they need to know how to fix the shooter. I would guess that the majority of your production line instructors wouldn't even have a clue in regards to this, let alone how to fix it amongst many other fine nuances of shooting.

Awesome Surf! Very well thought out, well written, and so much of it spoke to me. Muscle tension, post ignition push, and "punching" the gun out too violently are my hot topic issues...yeah I'm all messed up! I will be working on this.

Also, I think the whole "combative pistol stance" with the rolled shoulders, hunched back, and scrunched head is one of the main reasons I tense up. Sounds like you prefer more of a upright position to keep muscles relaxed.

Something I've been noticing, and noticed yesterday, is that my first few shots of the day seem to be my best. I'm not tense, I'm not trying to beat my previous times on the shot clock, ect. I'll just have to remember to relax throughout the session.

Here's a follow on question...in your experience, even if you train this way and get it right during training, will you revert back to the tense and scrunched position when lead actually starts flying both ways? Or will you be able to keep your fluidity/looseness through the stress of that life or death situation?

Thanks for taking the time on this!

I do prefer to be more upright and relaxed, but trust me I wasn't always like that, especially in my younger days when I was really into powerlifting. I tried to "own" every weapon on the range with my body mass / strength. Older and wiser perhaps, but now I very much try to conserve energy because those long long drawn out call outs are more taxing then 10 years ago.

As for part 2 of your question, training vs. real world performance, which is really another topic in itself, I definitely have a lot of thoughts on it. I will say that it is always interesting to see how a new guy reacts to gunfire in a real world setting. I find myself really taking note of this. But to keep it less brief then the initial post, everyone will obviously react differently. However I do believe that the more training, especially reality based FoF type, that a person has will greatly influence their reaction / performance. This is not a new concept by any means but one I do highly believe in and subscribe to.

While it may not be pleasant, the mind and body says "been here, done that" lets get on with what we need to do via training or in other words, our mind has a "trained response" from which to draw from. The body doesn't go into "caveman" or more correctly "reptile" mode, or isn't as easily influenced from that part of the brain because it has a response in memory or on file that it can draw from. Without an experience or similar experience from which to draw from, your "reptilian" brain runs rampant with its genetically pre-wired responses. Which can be a simplistic form of "fight" or "flight" without a trained way of doing it.

For myself, I find more tension in the events prior, or even the events post incident to be more stressful. I find myself eerily calm around gunfire. Don't get me wrong as I can live without it, but I feel less stressed then the moments or events leading up to it. Perhaps similar to pre-game butterflies, but when the whistle blows it is game on. Of course there are various ways in which the incident can come to a conclusion and there are those times when the post incident stress (administrative stuff, potential litigation, etc) can be far far worse and last for years. I have been involved in litigation that has lasted a total of 8 years of my 23+ year career. Even a win, or being found with zero liability, you can never get back all of that time and stress. I always tell my guys, that pulling a trigger may very well be not the toughest part of the entire process that they will go through and a few of my students / partners have also found this to be true.

[Matt O]

Very interesting write-up as always Surf, thanks! Your points about relaxation and speed, as well as the benefits of a more upright stance are spot on.

Another issue is that guys will start "crushing" or "over gripping" the pistol especially with their support hand.

In particular, I found the above statement interesting. By this do you mean crushing it to the point where you're shaking or that you're actively torquing it in an alternative direction which leads to errant shots?

I only ask because I have actually been actively working on increasing my overall grip strength, as well as the amount of pressure I utilize in my support hand grip in anchoring the pistol and minimizing muzzle flip during rapid fire.

The rationale I have been using on this is, if I increase my grip strength I can increase grip pressure without increasing grip "tenseness." So far, it seems to be paying dividends in reducing muzzle flip and speeding up my splits. Given you have very impressive recoil control though, I'd definitely be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

[6933]

What does the term "crushing" translate to in grip strength? I have taken multiple classes at TigerSwan and every instructor said, of the total amt. of force used to hold the pistol, 60-70% should come from the support hand. This allows the trigger finger hand to be more relaxed(and of course the trigger finger) so that better trigger control is attainable. So, for me, since TS is seriously squared away, and their technique works, I consider 60-70% of support hand "crush" to be optimum. Long winded way of wondering what "crush" translates to in terms of % applied by which hand.

[Ironman8]

I do prefer to be more upright and relaxed, but trust me I wasn't always like that, especially in my younger days when I was really into powerlifting. I tried to "own" every weapon on the range with my body mass / strength. Older and wiser perhaps, but now I very much try to conserve energy because those long long drawn out call outs are more taxing then 10 years ago.

As for part 2 of your question, training vs. real world performance, which is really another topic in itself, I definitely have a lot of thoughts on it. I will say that it is always interesting to see how a new guy reacts to gunfire in a real world setting. I find myself really taking note of this. But to keep it less brief then the initial post, everyone will obviously react differently. However I do believe that the more training, especially reality based FoF type, that a person has will greatly influence their reaction / performance. This is not a new concept by any means but one I do highly believe in and subscribe to.

While it may not be pleasant, the mind and body says "been here, done that" lets get on with what we need to do via training or in other words, our mind has a "trained response" from which to draw from. The body doesn't go into "caveman" or more correctly "reptile" mode, or isn't as easily influenced from that part of the brain because it has a response in memory or on file that it can draw from. Without an experience or similar experience from which to draw from, your "reptilian" brain runs rampant with its genetically pre-wired responses. Which can be a simplistic form of "fight" or "flight" without a trained way of doing it.

For myself, I find more tension in the events prior, or even the events post incident to be more stressful. I find myself eerily calm around gunfire. Don't get me wrong as I can live without it, but I feel less stressed then the moments or events leading up to it. Perhaps similar to pre-game butterflies, but when the whistle blows it is game on. Of course there are various ways in which the incident can come to a conclusion and there are those times when the post incident stress (administrative stuff, potential litigation, etc) can be far far worse and last for years. I have been involved in litigation that has lasted a total of 8 years of my 23+ year career. Even a win, or being found with zero liability, you can never get back all of that time and stress. I always tell my guys, that pulling a trigger may very well be not the toughest part of the entire process that they will go through and a few of my students / partners have also found this to be true.

Thanks for the reply, Surf. I will definitely try the more upright posture and loose/less tension next time out. Now that I think about it, possibly another benefit, Kyle Defoor mentioned in one of his handgun classes that he stands more upright on longer range shots so that he is looking out of the middle of the eye instead of having the head tucked and looking out of the top of the eye...which he says causes more eye strain and less focus on the sights. I just didn't think about doing the same for shorter range shots as well.

Also, that makes perfect sense about real world performance and kind of ties into another recent thread about brain function under stress. I have an ECQC class next weekend which includes some FoF. I'll be sure to note my performance/posture when the stress level is higher.

[MistWolf]

...Some say the end result in a flinch and the other phenomenon of what I call the "post ignition push" is the same thing. While similar they can be treated differently in how an instructor or a shooter might address the situation...

While I am not qualified to speak on this subject, I agree that if a miss is caused by a flinch or PIP, the result is the same- a miss. However, the cause is different and therefore, as you say, the solution is different.

Whenever PIP manifests itself in my shooting, I usually think of it as a flinch and try to solve it as such, because that's what I was taught. The intuitive side of my brain has always suspected it wasn't a flinch but the logical side knew it was. Attacking it as a flinch didn't correct it. Part of the lesson here, is to trust my intuition. The other is that now I know it's different problem, I can now apply the correct solution. Now, I'll be able to sort out if the problem is a flinch, the involountary reaction to an anticipated unpleasant event, or PIP, the attempt to artificially control recoil.

It's actually a relief to finally realize there is a difference between the two. For that alone, I owe you

[Surf]

In particular, I found the above statement interesting. By this do you mean crushing it to the point where you're shaking or that you're actively torquing it in an alternative direction which leads to errant shots?

"Crushing the grip" is a bit of a metaphorical term, in that the shooter displays so much muscle tension, primarily throughout the upper body (lats, upper back, delts, arms and neck) that it looks as if the shooter is going to actually or is attempting to crush the grip. This often leads to quick fatigue, body tremor and generally results in sloppy technique which can negatively influence the weapon and translates into poor results on target.

I only ask because I have actually been actively working on increasing my overall grip strength, as well as the amount of pressure I utilize in my support hand grip in anchoring the pistol and minimizing muzzle flip during rapid fire.

The rationale I have been using on this is, if I increase my grip strength I can increase grip pressure without increasing grip "tenseness." So far, it seems to be paying dividends in reducing muzzle flip and speeding up my splits. Given you have very impressive recoil control though, I'd definitely be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

You are hitting on a key point here. IMO, Actual grip strength is huge in recoil control. Greater grip strength will allow you to help with recoil / recovery much more efficiently and will help to negate the need to put as much emphasis on other larger muscle groups that will quickly fatigue the shooter which more rapidly decreases performance on target.

What does the term "crushing" translate to in grip strength? I have taken multiple classes at TigerSwan and every instructor said, of the total amt. of force used to hold the pistol, 60-70% should come from the support hand. This allows the trigger finger hand to be more relaxed(and of course the trigger finger) so that better trigger control is attainable. So, for me, since TS is seriously squared away, and their technique works, I consider 60-70% of support hand "crush" to be optimum. Long winded way of wondering what "crush" translates to in terms of % applied by which hand.

I attempt to avoid putting numbers or percentages, but I will agree that my support hand applies more gripping force. I will also note that I am a bit more than anal about the ability of allowing my primary shooting hand the freedom to run my desired trigger manipulation.

I will note that when guys start "Crushing" or "Over gripping" by my own personal definition you will see interesting things happening. Some guys get SO fixated an applying grip force with their support hand, they impart too much muscle influence from the tricep, shoulder, neck and lat muscle groups. What you will see is that shooters start placing too much negative counter torque on the weapon which usually causes the muzzle to "dip". They start "pulling" with the support hand instead of applying an opposing force with the opposite side of the pistol. So the pinkie and ring finger start "torquing" on the bottom of the front strap of the grip causing the muzzle to dip. Add a possible "flinch" or "post ignition push" improperly timed and you have big issues. With a modern Iso you want good 360* pressure. Now with a Weaver or Chapman type set up a push / pull was commonly touted and torquing rearward with the support hands pinkie and ring finger (pulling) was not a bad thing as the primary hand was providing the "Push" to counter this motion.

As a small test, extend your arms and form a simulated grip (no weapon needed). Now start applying a torque like tension with the support hands pinkie and ring finger. Notice what muscles come into play and the head wants to dip. Now when guys apply too much upper body muscle tension this is what you will commonly see happen. Too much negative torque on the weapon. Now with your arms extended just start "squeezing" your two hands evenly in a 360* manner. Notice what muscle groups flex. Mostly the hands, forearms and lesser degrees in the upper arms, shoulders and lats and neck. Notice that you can actually find the ability to keep the head more "upright" with less tension on the neck. When you torque, the muscle groups involved want to draw your head downward and creates a lot of tension.

So with that in mind, it is also my belief that the less muscle tension you can place on the upper body while maintaining efficiency in the weapons management, the better the results. Good isometric 360* tension and be aware if you start "pulling" or "torquing" too much. Start quoting percentages and not giving a good example of the direction of forces and you will start to see guys "torquing" or "pulling" the weapon especially as they get more fatigued.

Thanks for the reply, Surf. I will definitely try the more upright posture and loose/less tension next time out. Now that I think about it, possibly another benefit, Kyle Defoor mentioned in one of his handgun classes that he stands more upright on longer range shots so that he is looking out of the middle of the eye instead of having the head tucked and looking out of the top of the eye...which he says causes more eye strain and less focus on the sights. I just didn't think about doing the same for shorter range shots as well.

Also, that makes perfect sense about real world performance and kind of ties into another recent thread about brain function under stress. I have an ECQC class next weekend which includes some FoF. I'll be sure to note my performance/posture when the stress level is higher.

Remember being less tensed up or a more heads up relaxed upper body position, does not mean that this necessarily changes an overall good body position or athletic posture. A good linebacker will be head and eyes up but maintain the ability to move or absorb hits and react quickly with an aggressive stance / posture.

What KD mentions is also very true. We see better, have less tension and fatigue less quickly (eyes, body muscles) when we keep our head more erect and view the world in a certain angle or degrees with our line of sight. From someone who comes from a heavy background with a bolt rifle and spending hours behind one, this concept is patently obvious in its negative effects on the body.

Definitely get SN take on the topic. Be sure to let me know how it goes!

[6933]

I will also note that I am a bit more than anal about the ability of allowing my primary shooting hand the freedom to run my desired trigger manipulation.

This is where I feel having the support hand do 60-70% of the gripping comes into play. Allows the flexibility/freedom the trigger hand needs.

I get you not putting %'s on it, but it is useful. KD, TS cadre, LAV, and now you all seem to say the same thing on this topic. Funny how good instructors cover the same ground. Plays right into TS's saying, "There is no such thing as advanced marksmanship skills, only flawless execution of the fundamentals under stress." Good instructors cover the fundamentals and there are only so many recognized ways to do so, so there is much cross-pollination.

[tb-av]

Great info as usual Surf.

I'm glad I read it when I did. I thought the tactical turtles were the guys that knew what they were doing. I found on my own that if I could just stand rather normal and keep my head upright I did much better.

I am small frame though and so the upright position seemed less conducive to recoil control. So I would try to find a happy medium between TacTurtle and upright. I too have noticed the post ignition push and had no idea if it was right, wrong or what the hell to do about it.

Do you have any advice for staying upright, staying relaxed and with a small frame having good recoil distribution back through the arms. That seems to be my tipping point, that recoil seems to be all hand oriented or else it needs to be "muscled" out. Do you have any pointers on recoil distribution such that the hands don't get so upset each shot? It seems really difficult to get a strong grip and relaxed arms, shoulders and back.

[Matt O]

IMO, Actual grip strength is huge in recoil control. Greater grip strength will allow you to help with recoil / recovery much more efficiently and will help to negate the need to put as much emphasis on other larger muscle groups that will quickly fatigue the shooter which more rapidly decreases performance on target.

Makes perfect sense, thanks for your reply Surf!