Do you "Muscle" or "Over Grip" the pistol?

**Surf** · 05-12-13, 15:20

Originally Posted by MistWolf

While I am not qualified to speak on this subject, I agree that if a miss is caused by a flinch or PIP, the result is the same- a miss. However, the cause is different and therefore, as you say, the solution is different.

Whenever PIP manifests itself in my shooting, I usually think of it as a flinch and try to solve it as such, because that's what I was taught. The intuitive side of my brain has always suspected it wasn't a flinch but the logical side knew it was. Attacking it as a flinch didn't correct it. Part of the lesson here, is to trust my intuition. The other is that now I know it's different problem, I can now apply the correct solution. Now, I'll be able to sort out if the problem is a flinch, the involountary reaction to an anticipated unpleasant event, or PIP, the attempt to artificially control recoil.

It's actually a relief to finally realize there is a difference between the two. For that alone, I owe you

This is a confusing topic, in which I find even many very experienced shooters and experienced instructors, some at very high levels, who really don't understand or distinguish between the two. Which means that the standard fixes used for the "flinch" will more than likely do little to nothing for the issue.

Originally Posted by 6933

This is where I feel having the support hand do 60-70% of the gripping comes into play. Allows the flexibility/freedom the trigger hand needs.

I get you not putting %'s on it, but it is useful. KD, TS cadre, LAV, and now you all seem to say the same thing on this topic. Funny how good instructors cover the same ground. Plays right into TS's saying, "There is no such thing as advanced marksmanship skills, only flawless execution of the fundamentals under stress." Good instructors cover the fundamentals and there are only so many recognized ways to do so, so there is much cross-pollination.

Yes, I tend to avoid the percentage game. If a shooter is truly still unsure after having gone through my grip presentation, I will give them practical, or their hands on the weapon, exercises that will show them the feel on the grip / weapon that I am suggesting.

As for good instruction there are a lot of good instructors out there, but a handful of really great instructors. The majority of any quality instructor / organization will generally be very similar in the base foundations of shooting / marksmanship and indeed "cross pollination" as you mention is high. They may sound like parrots in the techniques / methods presented, which is not necessarily a bad thing, it just shows that foundation is foundation. It is often the method in which the material is presented in a manner that captivates the students ability to absorb and understand it. Personality of the instructor and teaching style go a long way here since the material is essentially time tested and similar in its foundation.

Now as the student base advances and keeping in mind the instructors charisma to captivate his audience and the ability to effectively "teach" is important however IMO an instructors true "worth" is not just being able to generically go off of a "lesson plan" and effectively present scripted material, but rather to have the knowledge and ability to identify, trouble shoot and have an effective way of fixing the fine nuances of the shooter at a truly expert level. If you travel around "the training circuit" as I call it as an advanced shooter, it is easy to recognize which instructors truly understand the fine detail concepts, can apply them in their own shooting, but perhaps more importantly have the ability to translate or teach that into their student base. The big thing here is that most of the students attending these courses range from a beginner to maybe advanced levels. There are few truly expert level shooters, so pretty much most advanced instructors may seem like a genius to their student base. Because the technical knowledge of the instructor is at a high enough level to teach 99% of the student base in their courses, this is where personality / charisma of the instructor come heavily into play and this is where you start seeing "student followings" to their own Sensei. Very similar to any martial type of art. This is not meant to be negative, just a reality in general.

Originally Posted by tb-av

Great info as usual Surf.

I'm glad I read it when I did. I thought the tactical turtles were the guys that knew what they were doing. I found on my own that if I could just stand rather normal and keep my head upright I did much better.

I am small frame though and so the upright position seemed less conducive to recoil control. So I would try to find a happy medium between TacTurtle and upright. I too have noticed the post ignition push and had no idea if it was right, wrong or what the hell to do about it.

Do you have any advice for staying upright, staying relaxed and with a small frame having good recoil distribution back through the arms. That seems to be my tipping point, that recoil seems to be all hand oriented or else it needs to be "muscled" out. Do you have any pointers on recoil distribution such that the hands don't get so upset each shot? It seems really difficult to get a strong grip and relaxed arms, shoulders and back.

Finding a happy medium for the individual is key. Some who are larger, more grip strength etc, might get away with something that another shooter may not. Being able to understand or identify when those techniques are being detrimental to your overall performance is key.

As for tips, that is something you need to play with. Some like more extension with the arms, because they eat up the recoil with their size / strength and some might use more flex in the elbows to help absorb shock with a more outstretched stand with more forward body lean. The key here is to get your base (lower body) set up well and attempt to keep the upper body a bit more relaxed. Again much of this is shooter dependent and without really being able to be present, it is hard for me to give more specific advice. The main thing is that when you are feeling overly "tensed up" in the upper body, traps, delts, upper back, neck, upper arms. Take a break from live fire, relax, breathe, walk it off, come back and shoot half a mag to a full mag for a simple one hole drill keeping in mind to be more upright and relaxed. People are often much more relaxed when shooting a simple marksmanship type drill. This will be self checking reminder of how your upper body should feel.

**Surf** · 05-12-13, 16:58

Originally Posted by PAWs 21

Great write up. I attended a Haley Strategic course last week and the way that Ron Avery demoed it was with a cup of water. He would bring it up to his line of sight and the goal was to not spill the water. They were saying essentially the same thing as written here but I figured I would post that for another way of looking at it.

I just saw a video posted at another forum of Ron Avery and Travis Haley where Ron is walking a shooter through his draw stroke. The video was pretty recent. The video did not mention the water cup thing, but I get the analogy and similarities of my discussion. Thanks for mentioning it.

**PAWs 21** · 05-13-13, 07:35

No problem. It was actually during a carbine class. He was talking about bringing the carbine up on target, but he said later during a break that it transfers to bringing a pistol up too. Not "punching" out and using gravity as your friend. Great write up.

**theblackknight** · 05-15-13, 21:27

70% of what?

I'm stuck at 150# ugh

**6933** · 05-15-13, 21:48

Originally Posted by theblackknight

70% of what?

I'm stuck at 150# ugh

Jerkin' off on all continents, on the .mil dime, has given you much strong grip asshopper!

**YVK** · 05-17-13, 00:15

Interesting. I've not heard of post ignition push in a negative connotation. I always thought it was a method/response aiding muzzle flip - as long as it in fact remained post ignition, i.e. commenced after sight lift-off and ceased before or at the time of sight return to intended position.