Questions for the masses on Firearms Instructors

[C4IGrant]

I can't imagine paying for a class and not getting a diagnostic. That's like scheduling to see a specialist doctor for an unknown ailment and he never comes in the room to see you.

Very common. I can probably count on one hand the number of instructors that actually know how to analyze what a shooter is doing and make corrective actions.

To me, this plays directly into allowing students to shoot larger groups and why they don't paste targets. If you think about it, if the student doesn't have to keep rounds inside an 8" or 5.5" circle, then how would you know if they are suffering from a flinch, Glock trigger, looking over their sights, etc, etc??


C4

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

That sounds like your just paying some one to stand behind you .

I am curious how you guys feel about instructors that:

1. Don't tape holes in the target.

2. Allow students (meaning that is acceptable) to put rounds outside of the A or -0 zone in a IPSC or IPDA target (under 25yds).

3. Don't provide any diagnostic help to the student when they are not meeting the set goals.




C4

[Army Chief]

I see that LAV's maniacal obsession with accuracy has been over-stamped upon you quite well, Grant.
Truth is, I can't think of any way to pay a shooting instructor a higher compliment. =]

Many well-intentioned instructors lack the operational background to fully comprehend the importance of shot placement in any sense beyond the academic, so they focus upon posture, stance, draw, sight alignment, equipment selection, legal concerns ... and just about everything else but keeping one's results in a fist-sized hole. All of these things are important, no doubt, but none of them reduce a threat anywhere near as effectively as exceptional marksmanship.

Vickers-esque accuracy standards do seem a bit over-the-top if you're coming from an "anywhere in the black" background (which is pretty much where most military and LEO shooters are), but the confidence that is found in being able to meet such a high standard is in indispensable component to readiness. You can carry the right gun in the best rig, loaded with the finest ammunition, equipped with the greatest sights and concealed with the most well-conceived apparel, but if you don't know for a fact that you are capable of taking a shot that will land exactly where you need to place it, then you just aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

Not to betray a trade secret, but I have always found great value in the typical VSM class closing ritual where the targets are retrieved. For those who might not have had the good fortune to attend such a class, you will spend all day running drills on a single target, with all of the frustration and angst that come with throwing the occasional shot and just generally struggling to meet such a high standard. Then, you're asked to step around to the rear of the target and reexamine your results, based upon the pattern you've made on the cardboard. It's a rare student indeed that has more than two or three "wounding" shots, as virtually all of the day's work will fall squarely into the kill zone. For most, it will be the first time in their lives that they have seen those kinds of results, and the accompanying "a-ha" moment is visible on many a face.

AC

[Mr. Smith]

I see that LAV's maniacal obsession with accuracy has been over-stamped upon you quite well, Grant.
Truth is, I can't think of any way to pay a shooting instructor a higher compliment. =]

Many well-intentioned instructors lack the operational background to fully comprehend the importance of shot placement in any sense beyond the academic, so they focus upon posture, stance, draw, sight alignment, equipment selection, legal concerns ... and just about everything else but keeping one's results in a fist-sized hole. All of these things are important, no doubt, but none of them reduce a threat anywhere near as effectively as exceptional marksmanship.

Vickers-esque accuracy standards do seem a bit over-the-top if you're coming from an "anywhere in the black" background (which is pretty much where most military and LEO shooters are), but the confidence that is found in being able to meet such a high standard is in indispensable component to readiness. You can carry the right gun in the best rig, loaded with the finest ammunition, equipped with the greatest sights and concealed with the most well-conceived apparel, but if you don't know for a fact that you are capable of taking a shot that will land exactly where you need to place it, then you just aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

Not to betray a trade secret, but I have always found great value in the typical VSM class closing ritual where the targets are retrieved. For those who might not have had the good fortune to attend such a class, you will spend all day running drills on a single target, with all of the frustration and angst that come with throwing the occasional shot and just generally struggling to meet such a high standard. Then, you're asked to step around to the rear of the target and reexamine your results, based upon the pattern you've made on the cardboard. It's a rare student indeed that has more than two or three "wounding" shots, as virtually all of the day's work will fall squarely into the kill zone. For most, it will be the first time in their lives that they have seen those kinds of results, and the accompanying "a-ha" moment is visible on many a face.

AC

Stepping to the back of the targets is a true moment of insight for a lot of shooters. It is one of the things I love to do with my class.

It can be a stark reality check for some as well.

[C4IGrant]

I see that LAV's maniacal obsession with accuracy has been over-stamped upon you quite well, Grant.
Truth is, I can't think of any way to pay a shooting instructor a higher compliment. =]

Many well-intentioned instructors lack the operational background to fully comprehend the importance of shot placement in any sense beyond the academic, so they focus upon posture, stance, draw, sight alignment, equipment selection, legal concerns ... and just about everything else but keeping one's results in a fist-sized hole. All of these things are important, no doubt, but none of them reduce a threat anywhere near as effectively as exceptional marksmanship.

Vickers-esque accuracy standards do seem a bit over-the-top if you're coming from an "anywhere in the black" background (which is pretty much where most military and LEO shooters are), but the confidence that is found in being able to meet such a high standard is in indispensable component to readiness. You can carry the right gun in the best rig, loaded with the finest ammunition, equipped with the greatest sights and concealed with the most well-conceived apparel, but if you don't know for a fact that you are capable of taking a shot that will land exactly where you need to place it, then you just aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

Not to betray a trade secret, but I have always found great value in the typical VSM class closing ritual where the targets are retrieved. For those who might not have had the good fortune to attend such a class, you will spend all day running drills on a single target, with all of the frustration and angst that come with throwing the occasional shot and just generally struggling to meet such a high standard. Then, you're asked to step around to the rear of the target and reexamine your results, based upon the pattern you've made on the cardboard. It's a rare student indeed that has more than two or three "wounding" shots, as virtually all of the day's work will fall squarely into the kill zone. For most, it will be the first time in their lives that they have seen those kinds of results, and the accompanying "a-ha" moment is visible on many a face.

AC

"Accuracy is KING" brother.

Well stated (as always).



C4

[Moltke]

Agree. When I attend a level 1 type class, I push my self to shoot faster and more accurate than the instructor requires. Always push your self to meet or exceed the instructors expectations.


C4

Why attend a level 1 type class?

[Moltke]

I got certified as an AR armorer partially so that when acquaintances have issues with there AR they might be more likely to listen to me when I tell them that their DPMS is shit.

That is awesome and funny.

[C4IGrant]

Why attend a level 1 type class?

Many different reasons. First, if you don't know the instructor and what they are "about" it is good to start from the entry level. Second, if you have already attended the instructors level 1 class before, you probably didn't catch everything they taught. Third, I attend multiple level 1 and level 2 classes from the same instructor to learn to be a better instructor myself. Watching how the instructor fixes students problems is of much value to me (as I can use this knowledge if I ever see that problem).

So there are many things one can get from attending a level 1 class (again and again) even if you are an advanced shooter.




C4

[.46caliber]

This may be a dumb a question so please bear with.

Is there a governing body for shooting instructors of carbine/defensive courses? I have seen mention of IIRC an NRA certification for standardized shooting events like trap and skeet.

For those of us newer to the carbine world or that want to find local instructors it would be nice to have a way to make sure I'm going to pay an instructor that will help me improve and identify gaps and not just set up a course and facilitate drills.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

[C4IGrant]

This may be a dumb a question so please bear with.

Is there a governing body for shooting instructors of carbine/defensive courses? I have seen mention of IIRC an NRA certification for standardized shooting events like trap and skeet.

For those of us newer to the carbine world or that want to find local instructors it would be nice to have a way to make sure I'm going to pay an instructor that will help me improve and identify gaps and not just set up a course and facilitate drills.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

There is not.

If you want to work with instructors that will hold you to TIGHT accuracy standards look at Vickers Tactical, Hackathorn, Defoor, or anybody on the Alias Training roster.

If you want to get your feet wet and save some money, check out a Regional VSM instructor (http://vickerstactical.com/training-...d-instructors/)




C4