Questions for the masses on Firearms Instructors

[.46caliber]

Many different reasons. First, if you don't know the instructor and what they are "about" it is good to start from the entry level. Second, if you have already attended the instructors level 1 class before, you probably didn't catch everything they taught. Third, I attend multiple level 1 and level 2 classes from the same instructor to learn to be a better instructor myself. Watching how the instructor fixes students problems is of much value to me (as I can use this knowledge if I ever see that problem).

So there are many things one can get from attending a level 1 class (again and again) even if you are an advanced shooter.




C4

Do you find that repeating basic courses is better for maintaining the basic skills than practicing on your own? Maybe more so for the average shooter than for an advanced shooter?

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[C4IGrant]

Do you find that repeating basic courses is better for maintaining the basic skills than practicing on your own? Maybe more so for the average shooter than for an advanced shooter?

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For me, it is entirely possible that I did NOT fully "get" all the instructor was teaching. So repeating a class that I thought was "good" is something that I do a lot.

If you take notes, pay close attention in the class and attempt to do what the instructor asks of you, you probably don't need to take the same class again (assuming your doors weren't blown off). Too many times I see students in level 2 (or advanced classes) that quite honestly needed to take a level 1 class again (as either they didn't get it OR never practiced what was taught).

Keys to success are:

1. Attend a Basic Level Class (NRA/VSM/ETC.)
2. Practice what you learned.
3. Shoot with others that are into training (run drills, shoot to standards, etc.)
4. Be realistic about your ability and if you are ready, attend a level 1 class.
5. Repeat steps 2-3.
6. If your skills are up to speed and you want to be pushed, take a level 2 class.
7. Repeat steps 2-3.



C4

[C4IGrant]

For me, if the instructor does not (individually) watch what I am doing (mag change, malfunction clearance, etc) to make sure that I am doing it right, that is a clue. If the instructor does not look at MY target after the completion of a drill or test and advise me on my groups, that is another clue that they are not interested (or able) to figure out what I am doing right or wrong.

Am I off on these requirements??? What say you??



C4

[.46caliber]

Good thread with good info. Thanks for the tip about the VSM regionals.

This discussion reminds me of how one of my accounting professors described the core accounting course, "Take it once to fail and identify gaps, take it twice to pass and take it one more time to enjoy it."

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[C4IGrant]

Good thread with good info. Thanks for the tip about the VSM regionals.

This discussion reminds me of how one of my accounting professors described the core accounting course, "Take it once to fail and identify gaps, take it twice to pass and take it one more time to enjoy it."

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That is funny. I have a lot of accounting friends.

Without knowing it, you hit another nerve with students. Fear of looking bad at a class. This holds MANY people back from taking harder classes. It is OK to not do well in a class. Learn from it, ID your problem areas and fix them!


C4

[Koshinn]

That is funny. I have a lot of accounting friends.

Without knowing it, you hit another nerve with students. Fear of looking bad at a class. This holds MANY people back from taking harder classes. It is OK to not do well in a class. Learn from it, ID your problem areas and fix them!


C4

Classes aren't competition, there is no curve for the final grade. Classes are for self improvement.

I keep telling people that but it never clicks.

[theblackknight]

I am curious how you guys feel about instructors that:

1. Don't tape holes in the target.

2. Allow students (meaning that is acceptable) to put rounds outside of the A or -0 zone in a IPSC or IPDA target (under 25yds).

3. Don't provide any diagnostic help to the student when they are not meeting the set goals.

This is sad commentary on the state of training. I see certain instructors running a HUGE ratio of students. Everyones defense is always "well come out and shoot with us herp derp" but let's be real, you don't have to test drive a certain car/guitar/gun/woman to know you won't end up buying.





1: if you are working on the speed aspect, negative taping saves time. If you dont tape at all, just shoot at the berm?

2: I have no problem with a 10/5% c zone tolerance, unless the instructor purposely wants you to ride the wheels off to make progress.

3: This is the point of a instructor.

As to the accuracy thing, I think it's miss guided when I hear a lot of people who put a lot of time on accuracy because "people generally don't have a problem shooting fast while being shot at, but their accuracy always suffers". So doing a lot of accuracy intensive work, while always welcome, will surely help them be accurate, but if they never learn to shoot as fast as possible at that certain standard, this person can never be accurate at speed and will continue to put all their eggs in the bullseye basket.

Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas

[MrTips]

Without knowing it, you hit another nerve with students. Fear of looking bad at a class. This holds MANY people back from taking harder classes. It is OK to not do well in a class. Learn from it, ID your problem areas and fix them!


C4

Ego can be a crippling thing. Eventually you have to ask yourself if you want to just be the top tier guy in your own little world or if you actually want to make serious progression.

And again, complete agreement with your suggested requirements. If I'm not receiving tangible feedback/diagnosis/suggestions on my performance, I'm essentially just overpaying for range time. A proper class has got to be more than the equivalent of just watching an instructional video.

[C4IGrant]

This is sad commentary on the state of training. I see certain instructors running a HUGE ratio of students. Everyones defense is always "well come out and shoot with us herp derp" but let's be real, you don't have to test drive a certain car/guitar/gun/woman to know you won't end up buying.





1: if you are working on the speed aspect, negative taping saves time. If you dont tape at all, just shoot at the berm?

2: I have no problem with a 10/5% c zone tolerance, unless the instructor purposely wants you to ride the wheels off to make progress.

3: This is the point of a instructor.

As to the accuracy thing, I think it's miss guided when I hear a lot of people who put a lot of time on accuracy because "people generally don't have a problem shooting fast while being shot at, but their accuracy always suffers". So doing a lot of accuracy intensive work, while always welcome, will surely help them be accurate, but if they never learn to shoot as fast as possible at that certain standard, this person can never be accurate at speed and will continue to put all their eggs in the bullseye basket.

Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas

Most of the accuracy "Nazi" instructors I come across ALSO hold students to time standards. While I am sure there are some instructors that pay no attention to time as long as they put the bullet in a certain location, I have not met them yet.
IMHO, too many people focus on being fast, but can't hit A zones (or -0). Under pressure, their groups simply open up 3X as much (taking them off the target or on the edge). This is a no go.

For me, I never worked on being fast. It just naturally came as a bi-product of working on the fundamentals (especially accuracy) over and over again. Reps build speed naturally IMHO.



C4

[.46caliber]

For me, I never worked on being fast. It just naturally came as a bi-product of working on the fundamentals (especially accuracy) over and over again. Reps build speed naturally IMHO.

A million times, yes!

It takes less time and effort, in total, to build the foundation first and let the speed come naturally. This is something I find most people can't get around. I've seen this many times over training people at work on our video team.

The guys that listen to me and work on quality of work and let speed come are always ready to be released from training in less time than the guys that are worried about how fast they go.


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