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Thread: Evolving Cost Of Owning An AR

  1. #41
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    Re: Evolving Cost Of Owning An AR

    Quote Originally Posted by tpevan View Post
    Since 12" of 360 degree real estate became available...95% of which never gets used for anything other than acting as a "handguard"

    NEEDed? No. TactiCOOL? Yes.
    Your basic assumption is that making a rail smooth significantly reduces costs.

    Look at the KAC URX iii/3.1, Geissele Mk4, and Centurion CMR. They're hardly cheaper in price than a top of the line quad rail also from KAC or Centurion.

    Yes, you can point to a troy tube and note how cheap it is, but there are also many cheap quad rails too.

    So if what you're actually saying is that any upgrade of the hand guard from the plastic ones is a waste of money, I'm going to simply disagree with you because of lesser ability to utilize "better" shooting techniques and essentially no low light capability because of lack of flash light and/or laser. Also, depending on how you actually use the weapon and its role, the plastic hand guards can reduce practical accuracy due to not free floating and no bipod attachment location.
    Last edited by Koshinn; 06-13-13 at 09:02.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMiller View Post
    There's a difference between "customizing" your rifle vs optimizing your rifle for your uses.

    "Customizing" is usually just for looks and showing off.

    Optimizing is going to show in your shooting and how the rifle performs.

    I agree with this statement 100% I follow the KISS rule. keep thing light.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    Your basic assumption is that making a rail smooth significantly reduces costs.

    Look at the KAC URX iii/3.1, Geissele Mk4, and Centurion CMR. They're hardly cheaper in price than a top of the line quad rail also from KAC or Centurion.

    Yes, you can point to a troy tube and note how cheap it is, but there are also many cheap quad rails too.

    So if what you're actually saying is that any upgrade of the hand guard from the plastic ones is a waste of money, I'm going to simply disagree with you because of lesser ability to utilize "better" shooting techniques and essentially no low light capability because of lack of flash light and/or laser. Also, depending on how you actually use the weapon and its role, the plastic hand guards can reduce practical accuracy due to not free floating and no bipod attachment location.
    You have completely misinterpreted my statement. In no way am I thrashing railed forearms or saying "don't buy one, it's a waste of money!" I'm saying that spending $300-400 on an aluminum free floating tube/railed forearm for a 16" or less rifle that will likely never shoot in excess of 300 yds is a waste. Yes, plastic handguards or non free float systems do reduce "potential" accuracy over free float systems at distance, but for most of the shooting that people do with ARs these days (carbine courses/tactical rifle courses, etc.), you are never going to get much of a chance to notice any real benefit.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpevan View Post
    ... for most of the shooting that people do with ARs these days (carbine courses/tactical rifle courses, etc.), you are never going to get much of a chance to notice any real benefit.
    +1

    ROI on money spent.

  5. #45
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    Re: Evolving Cost Of Owning An AR

    Quote Originally Posted by tpevan View Post
    You have completely misinterpreted my statement. In no way am I thrashing railed forearms or saying "don't buy one, it's a waste of money!" I'm saying that spending $300-400 on an aluminum free floating tube/railed forearm for a 16" or less rifle that will likely never shoot in excess of 300 yds is a waste. Yes, plastic handguards or non free float systems do reduce "potential" accuracy over free float systems at distance, but for most of the shooting that people do with ARs these days (carbine courses/tactical rifle courses, etc.), you are never going to get much of a chance to notice any real benefit.
    How will you attach lights and lasers for the half of the day when it's dark?

    I agree that free floating isn't terribly useful unless you're applying lots of sling torque or shooting at distance, but even a carbine length quad rail that isn't free floated has very positive benefits over plastic hand guards.

    And if you're going to spend a little on a short rail, might as well spend a little extra for a longer rail for an extended shooting grip and free floating.


    And the whole idea that people only "need" rifles for short range work is a huge assumption. I mean all you really "need" is an iron sighted M16 for 5-500m. It's really nice to have a red dot or glass optic. It's also really nice to have a sling and shorter barrel and flash light and laser and extended rail and vfg/handstop and comp/brake, etc.
    Last edited by Koshinn; 06-13-13 at 12:31.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  6. #46
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    Re: Evolving Cost Of Owning An AR

    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    How will you attach lights and lasers for the half of the day when it's dark?
    MOE handguard

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilblackrifle View Post
    MOE handguard
    Could work to save money and save on modifications to your rifle's barrel nut area and FSP. But still doesn't help for distance shooting and more modern shooting stances.
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein

  8. #48
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    I think I'd rather waste that $300 for an unneccesary and ridiculously heavy handguard than try to extend my support hand on a MOE. Especially considering how I can then mount all that "useless and unneeded junk" like IR, laser, "kitchen sink, beer cup holder".
    ˇˇKawaii Desu Ne Haruhi-Chan!!

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.Watts View Post
    Believe me, there is a difference between what serious shooters do & what YouTube commandos do.
    This, and to elaborate - serious shooters and hobby shooters.

    I would say serious shooters, i.e.: LE/MIL/Private security, get what their dept allows and their home weapons may resemble how their work weapons function. Serious shooters also spend their money on ammo and training and not gizmos.

    Hobby shooter: sky's the limit on spending, though most often the YouTube/mall ninjas spend 90% on superfluous gear and not training and ammo.

    p.s. broke mofos like me spend what we can on the essentials - ammo and range time, though when we save our lunch money we can buy extra doo-dads and mags.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshinn View Post
    How will you attach lights and lasers for the half of the day when it's dark?
    There is always a way


    I agree that free floating isn't terribly useful unless you're applying lots of sling torque or shooting at distance...
    Yes and no. Placing your forearm on some type of rest will result in a change to the point of impact, with or without a tight sling. Folks who have been in combat also talk about placing lots of pressure on their handguards during the heat of battle and using a VFG can increase the leverage of that pressure. If the shooter can afford a FF tube, it's good to have. But regular handguards will work as long as the shooter is aware of their shortcomings

    even a carbine length quad rail that isn't free floated has very positive benefits over plastic hand guards.
    I disagree. I need very little rail estate- if any- to attach what I need to my rifle and I don't like how quads feel. Without the benefit of being free floated, there is no reason for a quad

    And if you're going to spend a little on a short rail, might as well spend a little extra for a longer rail for an extended shooting grip and free floating.
    Agreed


    And the whole idea that people only "need" rifles for short range work is a huge assumption. I mean all you really "need" is an iron sighted M16 for 5-500m. It's really nice to have a red dot or glass optic. It's also really nice to have a sling and shorter barrel and flash light and laser and extended rail and vfg/handstop and comp/brake, etc.
    If lights, lasers, slings & handstops aren't needed, neither are rails
    Last edited by MistWolf; 06-13-13 at 16:12.
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