Optics or not for training class

[koolaid]

Pretty much what everbody has suggested so far is what i had figured. I plan on attending the Vickers Level 1 class in August if that helps any.

[rhino]

The only reason I would purposely (or advise someone else to) use iron sights for a class would be 1) if I knew I was not able to use them properly, and 2) it was a marksmanship-oriented class. Otherwise, I'd do the class the way I planned to use the rifle.

[Jay Cunningham]

Pretty much what everbody has suggested so far is what i had figured. I plan on attending the Vickers Level 1 class in August if that helps any.

You could always just call/email Larry and ask him his opinion on what you should do.

[30 cal slut]

Pretty much what everbody has suggested so far is what i had figured. I plan on attending the Vickers Level 1 class in August if that helps any.

Then I'll quote LAV directly.

I don't care if you have to star in a gay porno pic to pay for it, GET A RED DOT.

FWIW, LAV recommends Aimpoint or S&B and does not recommend Eotech.

[Gutshot John]

If I was in your shoes I would shoot my first course with the iron sights...

The 0-2 aperture is very fast at close-range and acceptably accurate out to 200 yards. Most ACOGs (depending on model and magnification) are difficult to shoot quickly at close range without significant practice, and are sub-optimal in transitional lighting, with tactical white-light, at close range.

Actually I did this for my first class (I had to as my optic mount was defective) and came to realize how inadequate irons can be at close range. I find them horribly slow on the small aperture and inaccurate on the large aperture one.

Learn to use your iron sights if you don't know how already, but I don't think much is gained by foregoing optics in your first class.

Learn to use... what you're really going to use.

[markm]

Actually I did this for my first class (I had to as my optic mount was defective) and came to realize how inadequate irons can be at close range. I find them horribly slow on the small aperture and inaccurate on the large aperture one.

With all due respect, I'd argue that you weren't instructed on irons very well then. (in the cqb realm) <--- added

1. I agree (for me at least) that the big app sucks. I can't hit shit with it. It's amazing how much accuracy can drop off with such a small change. Some folks may be able to make the big app hum, but I sure can't.

2. If you're consistent with the position of the toe of your stock, you can get consistent snap sight pictures pretty reliably and fast.

3. If you're at contact distances and/or up to 10 yards and you're still lining up irons sights, you're nuts dude. I can score lightening fast C.O.M. hits on a target my simply looking OVER the rear app and using the front sight post only, JUST LIKE one would use his red dot. I can peripherally see the sight coming onto target and time the trigger pull appropriately.

4. KevinB (respected m4c member) makes the exellent point that although he can get hits just as fast or faster with IRONs, Red dots really shine in adverse conditions such as low light, dust/smoke, and/or when taking incoming fire. (i'm paraphrasing his comments, but they're the best, unbiased comments I've read on the subject)

[Gutshot John]

With all due respect, I'd argue that you weren't instructed on irons very well then.

1. I agree (for me at least) that the big app sucks. I can't hit shit with it. It's amazing how much accuracy can drop off with such a small change. Some folks may be able to make the big app hum, but I sure can't.

2. If you're consistent with the position of the toe of your stock, you can get consisten snap sight pictures pretty reliably and fast.

3. If you're at contact distances and/or up to 10 yards and you're still lining up irons sights, you're nuts dude. I can score lightening fast C.O.M. hits on a target my simply looking OVER the rear app and using the front sight post JUST LIKE one would use his red dot.

4. KevinB (respected m4c member) makes the exellent point that although he can get hits just as fast or faster with IRONs. Red dots really shine in adverse conditions such as low light, dust/smoke, and when taking incoming fire. (i'm paraphrasing his comments, but they're the best, unbiased comments I've read on the subject)

Is USMC good enough training on iron sights?

Sheesh why do you guys always think in "ALL" or "NOTHING". Can you put rounds on target? Sure. But the large aperture only works (barely) at CQB distance and it's still lots slower than a red-dot and not nearly as accurate. The small aperture is useful at distance, but is horribly slow at CQB distances relative to a red-dot. Sorry but that's the reality. As for the "cons" of a red-dot, I'd submit that the combat value more than compensates for any deficiencies.

Relative to a red-dot, there is no comparison to speed and accuracy with irons. I can't tell you how many times personal experience has confirmed this.

As for what I chose, I keep a variable low-power optic, at CQB distance I'd probably point-shoot.

Again...learn to shoot what you intend on using.

[markm]

Is USMC good enough training? Sorry but relative to a red-dot, there is no comparison to speed and accuracy with irons.

USMC training is excellent for marksmanship, and I'd never disrespect the Marine Corps... EVER. But I don't know the specifics of your training in regards to the CQB realm(which I assume we're talking about) so I can't comment.

[markm]

Sorry but relative to a red-dot, there is no comparison to speed and accuracy with irons.

I find them to be about equal. Actually the irons I can hit faster because I can see the post approaching center mass from low ready (or whatever postion the weapon is in) and lead the trigger pull accordingly.

Again... if you're comparing lining up the sights like you'd do on a precision shot to the red dot, then you're not getting a fair comparison. The irons would lose every time if you shot CQB that way.

[Jay Cunningham]

Sheesh why do you guys always think in "ALL" or "NOTHING".

And the irony must be lost on you that you are making a broad generalization about all the members of this site.