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  1. #1
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    Another 1911 Thread - Need Advice

    I have owned a couple 1911 pistols over the years but they were not all they were cracked up to be. One was a Springfield I bought back in the early 90’s from a co-worker who had a butcher of a gunsmith work on it. It was a disaster and I got taken to the cleaners on it. The other was a Kimber Custom II that never really worked that well. I could never find a combination of magazines and ammo that worked well for me. Both of these guns left me thinking a little less of the 1911 platform.

    Now fast forward to this past weekend. I friend and fellow instructor lent me one of his Les Baer custom 1911’s (I believe it was a Custom Combat). I shot just under 500 rounds out of this pistol with not one failure of any kind. I also shot it very well. It points naturally and the trigger was great. I would say it broke in the 4-5 pound range and very crisp as you would imagine in a $2K 1911 pistol. This pistol is pretty old and I have seen my friend shoot this pistol very well for many years. He is a died in the wool “1911 guy”. He has 10 or more really nice custom 1911 guns and I would say ½ of them are more collector’s items and the rest are hard use guns. He swears by Les Baer and the gun he lent me is his back-up to his back-up… Needless to say he make a lot more money than I do.

    My question’s are:
    • Do I just need to step up into a $2,000 custom/semi-custom 1911? Life has been pretty good to me. It would not be a hardship for me to spend that much on a 1911. But If I do I need it to be as reliable as any machine can be.
    • I looked at a Les Baer Custom 1911 at a local gun shop. The pistol was so tight I could hardly move the slide. My friends Les Baer was very smooth and much looser. Not sloppy but it was not at tight as the new one I held at the shop.
    • In the 1911 world are Accuracy and Reliability mutually exclusive? In other words would I give up accuracy for extra reliability, if that makes sense. I do not need a pistol that will shoot 1” groups at 75’. I just need reliability and acceptable combat accuracy.

    I have given this a lot of though and I am starting to “get it” finally. I think I can see myself with another 1911 in the future. I would appreciate your feedback and advise on this.
    If War is ever lawful, then peace is sometimes sinful.
    - C.S. Lewis 'God in the Dock'

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    I absolutely have a passion for the 1911 but as the very wise Larry Vickers has previously said, the 1911 is a enthusiasts gun NOT a service gun. And he is correct.

    With that said the 1911 is much easier to shoot well. I just recently finished 'reassembling' my Springfield Loaded after I did some customizing to it myself. Since reassembling it I've shoot 200 rounds through it to make sure it still works. It did still work and I used it in Sundays USPSA match in Single Stack division. I placed 3rd with it, just under Scott Warren. He beat me by 1.2794 points which came out to .26%.............I thought I did pretty well since it's been about 2yrs since I've shot this gun in a match and back then it was an IDPA match not USPSA. I got 72.9927% on the classifier (not bad, it's a high B class performance which is about my average, I'm getting close to A class).

    Last edited by Robb Jensen; 04-09-08 at 05:34.
    Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
    Chief Armorer for Corp Arms (FFL 07-08/SOT 02)

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    Say what???

    How can it not be a service gun after all those years as a service gun? Would you clarify what he meant by that statement?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    Say what???

    How can it not be a service gun after all those years as a service gun? Would you clarify what he meant by that statement?

    Thanks

    I agree with what he said and I agree.
    You should ask him.
    Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
    Chief Armorer for Corp Arms (FFL 07-08/SOT 02)

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    Wish I could ask him that and a lot of other stuff...Like how to shoot better!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    Wish I could ask him that and a lot of other stuff...Like how to shoot better!
    His screen name here is simply...you guessed it Larry Vickers! And he's an Industry Professional (green screen name).
    Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotm4 View Post
    I absolutely have a passion for the 1911 but as the very wise Larry Vickers has previously said, the 1911 is a enthusiasts gun NOT a service gun. And he is correct.
    This would certainly play to my own feeling to date. But I have seen everything stop working at some point in training. I have had failures with Glock’s, SiG’s and a few others. I have also seen a 1911 once in a while that just never quits. Many do fail more often than others and that is the reason I am posting these questions. We train in Yakima, WA in a high desert environment. The sand/wind is a killer on most guns. But if a 1911 exists that will work as well as others I would like to know what it is. What makes a great 1911 a great gun? Like any gun I believe the weapon is greater than the sum of its parts.

    gotm4 I do appreciate your comments and certainly Larry’s as well.
    If War is ever lawful, then peace is sometimes sinful.
    - C.S. Lewis 'God in the Dock'

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    Do I just need to step up into a $2,000 custom/semi-custom 1911?
    Not custom. Just higher priced. Supposedly the higher price is buying you better quality components, superior fit and finish, better accuracy and more reliable operation.

    Does it? In my experience, no.

    I looked at a Les Baer Custom 1911 at a local gun shop. The pistol was so tight I could hardly move the slide. My friends Les Baer was very smooth and much looser. Not sloppy but it was not at tight as the new one I held at the shop.
    I have had similar experiences with new Baer guns. I couldn't believe how tight those suckers were. I'm not a fan of tight guns. If I were looking for a Baer, I'd keep an eye out for a Thunder Ranch with a few hundred rounds through it already.

    In the 1911 world are Accuracy and Reliability mutually exclusive?
    No.


    The thing to ask yourself is "Do I really want to buy a gun that needs so much attention?" I think there are three kinds of 1911 owners.

    1. The kind who love their 1911 because they spent a ton on it or it's the only one they own.
    2. The kind who hate 1911s because they haven't found a good one yet. (I call these people Glock fans)
    3. The kind who have been through the cycle of 1911 fandom and have kept or discarded their 1911s according to their needs.

    Further, I think there are three ways to go when it comes to 1911s.

    1. Buy something with the features you want (sights, beavertail, checkering, etc) as cheaply as possible. Shoot it until it doesn't work then get another one. This is my disposable 1911 theory.
    2. Buy something and send it off for a gunsmith to customize to your specs. I am too impatient for this path, but a lot of people like it. Some folks modify this path by working on it themselves. I equate that to doing engine work on my car. Sure I could, but there are pros out there for that.
    3. Take a lot of time finding out what you want, why you want it (examine your needs in detail), and figure out who makes the best product to fit your needs. Then spend the money to get it. Even then, there's no guarantee it'll be what you want it to be.


    If you're asking why the 1911 needs so much attention, I'll leave you this one tidbit from the Vickers 1911 Operators class. According to Larry, who has forgotten more about 1911s than I'll ever know, not a single part on a 1911 is a drop in part. Everything EVERYTHING can require gunsmith fitting. I debated this in my mind for a few seconds until he amended the statement by saying that MOST of the time, the grips don't need gunsmith attention. Most of the time. But sometimes, they do.

    I don't know if there's anything on a Glock that can't be replaced with a punch, hammer and technical manual. That's why the Glock is a service pistol and the 1911 is an enthusiast pistol.

    What makes a 1911 a great gun? Shootability. Superior trigger. Superior ergonomics. Low bore axis. When they work right, they work GREAT.

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    Based on my experience, it is my opinion that a lot of 1911's suffer from the same problems that glocks suffer from - the owner tinkering with the gun when they should just leave it alone. Of course, I am not talking about cleaning and pm, I am talking about swapping parts that the user has no business swapping or polishing parts the user shouldn't be polishing. I have owned 7 different 1911's and have seen many thousands of rounds go through two others that belong to one of my shooting partners. Maybe I have been lucky, but all of my 1911's have been as reliable as Glocks except one. The one exception was a Kimber Anniversary model that had a chamber that was too tight and would not feed my 200 grain SWC reloads. I have 3 other Kimbers that have been flawless. My Colt has been flawless, and my RRA has been flawless. I have not shot my other Colt. The thumb safety on my RRA did break, but it never stopped shooting. The thumb safety was replaced by RRA at no charge in a matter of days. I have another RRA 1911 on the way. I expect it to function 100% and to be accurate. You are fully justified for wanting any 1911 that you buy to be accurate and reliable as well.


    In an article about AK47's, Pat Rogers quoted someone that said Ak47's are more accurate than people give them credit for and AR15's are more reliable than people think. I think the same thing can be said for Glocks and 1911's. The glock is more accurate than people think and the 1911 is more reliable than people give it credit for.

    I realize that there are subpar 1911's and lemons out there, but I also think knowing what to look for and buying from a reputable company is a huge step toward happiness with the 1911.

    If you have been less than pleased with Springers and Kimbers in the past and buying a semi custom 1911 for $1,500 - $2,000 gives you more confidence in your gun, then by all means buy a semi custom or custom with the features you desire. I do not think you have to buy a high dollar custom/semi custom to get a good 1911, but I think doing so stacks the deck in your favor.

    I also do not think that accuracy and reliability are exclusive concepts.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero View Post
    3. The kind who have been through the cycle of 1911 fandom and have kept or discarded their 1911s according to their needs.
    That's me. .... the cycle of buying all the aftermarket mags and gadgetry to try and make the 1911 reliable.
    I guess we all have to go thru it sooner or later.

    Good overall summary of the 1911 scenario!
    "What would a $2,000 Geissele Super Duty do that a $500 PSA door buster on Black Friday couldn't do?" - Stopsign32v

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