Another 1911 Thread - Need Advice

[Alaskapopo]

This is what I would like to avoid. I had to send my Kimber back a few times and it still never ran well. But to be fare I had to send one of my Glock 21’s back for service, so stuff does happen. But my Kimber experience more of less turned me off to the 1911. My hope is that a higher end 1911 like the Les Baer I shot last weekend will be a pleasure to shoot and to own. It may never replace my Glock 21 or Glock 19 as my primary carry weapons but I would like to have a reliable 1911 in any case.

The advantage of buying a high quality high end 1911 is that lemons are extremely rare with these guns because a lot more time and effort is put into them and they are actually test fired before they leave the factory with more than 5 rounds (unlike Kimber).

Kimber started out great but they let their quality control drop as their popularity increased.
Pat

[Gunfighter13]

If money is no issue:

Ted Yost $3500.00 and up.
http://www.louderthanwords.us/
Les Baer $1900.00 to $4000.00
http://www.lesbaer.com/recon.html
Ed Brown $2200.00 to $2600.00
http://edbrown.com/htmlos.cgi/00889....67990316099225

Do you need to spend 2000 plus to get a good 1911? No, but plan on spending around $1500.00 for one with all the options.

My two recommendations are the Springfield Operator or the Kimber Warrior. Both will serve you well and come with all the standard options. You will make changes before long or you will buy a second one, and a third, and a fourth.......

Edit to add:
You said that your Kimber turned you off on 1911's. That tends to happen to more people than will admit it. Most 1911 guys can fix most any problem they encounter with their gun and if not they know who to send it to. I do not have any of my 1911's set up the same. All are tuned to the ammo that is carried and/or shot through the gun. Something you should also think about is that most new mid and high priced guns will need a break-in if bought new. Most are real tight from the factory. May have been your issue with your Kimber. Do the break-in round count before doing any adjustments or sending your gun back. Use good magazines (number one issue with 1911's). Use good ammo. Use good lube and lube it often.

[DocGKR]

A properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. 1911's are the most "shootable" pistols I have ever used; I have several 1911's that I have carried on duty, as they are equally reliable, but much more accurate than my 9 mm Glocks. During our local SWAT pistol training certification, I fired 1200 witnessed and documented rounds in 5 days through a C&S customized Colt 1991A1 with ZERO failures to feed or function. I have an additional Colt 1991A1 done by Novak's that is equally reliable. Likewise I have several Colt and SA 1911's that Chuck Rogers and Larry Vickers have worked their magic on that have never malfunctioned. I am definitely a 1911 guy.

However, as pointed out numerous times by pistol SME's like Larry Vickers and Hilton Yam, the 1911 is NOT truly a viable modern service pistol, due to the considerable effort, expense, and attention to detail required for agencies and units to set-up and maintain 1911's if they are to be used as a hard-use issue weapon. In this era, both the S&W .45 ACP M&P and the HK45 are likely better .45 ACP pistols for mass issue.

If a pistol can't run at least 500 and preferably 1000 continuous rounds without a single problem, it is NOT acceptable as a duty or CCW weapon. I have seen far too many poorly executed 1911's--both stock and custom--that cannot reach this goal. Sadly, many of these poorly functioning pistols have been in the 6004's of SWAT and patrol officers I have worked with... I don't care who you are, if you are not willing to spend the time, money, and have the patience to wait for one of the rare pistolsmiths who actually knows how to set-up a combat 1911 and ensures it gets done right, then a 1911 is probably not the way to go. Out of the box, I firmly believe the 9 mm Glocks are the most reliable and shootable pistols available for the majority of end-users. The .40 S&W M&P is also a great choice, as are the .45 ACP M&P and HK45 mentioned above.

FWIW, the only "stock" 1911 currently available that I would consider using is the SA Professional, and even then, I would not trust it until after shooting at least 1000 trouble free rounds and having it checked out by a GOOD pistolsmith. None of the other standard and semi-custom 1911's I have observed have proven to consistently offer acceptable hard-use reliability and durability out of the box. Both my SA Loaded's exhibited significant functional and QA problems; likewise I had two high dollar 1911's customized by well known pistol smiths that turned out to be unreliable dogs that I had to get rid of.

[Joe Mamma]

I absolutely have a passion for the 1911 but as the very wise Larry Vickers has previously said, the 1911 is a enthusiasts gun NOT a service gun. And he is correct.

I'm surprised Larry would admit, I mean say that.

I think there is too high a percentage of 1911's that don't run right out of the box. Even spending a lot of money on a high end 1911 will not come close to guaranteeing the consistant reliablilty that most people should have in a carry gun/service pistol. The unfortunate thing is that there are too many variables with the 1911 platform that affect reliability. This is further complicated by the numerous aftermarket parts that are on the market.

Having said that, if you like to tinker with guns, there is no better platform. Also, of all the guns I have, if there would be only one that I could save in a fire, it would be a 1911.

Joe Mamma

[MX5]

Don't be surprised. Conversations with Larry Vickers & Ken Hackathorn are enlightening.

[Grey]

I am not surprised by this comment from Larry Vickers. I do not think he is saying the 1911 is not a good combat gun at an individual user level. I think he is saying that the 1911 is not a good service gun. Rather it would be cost prohibitive for the armed forces to re-implement a 1911 on the order of a custom 1911 like those in the hands of special forces. An HK, Glock, SiG or M&P in .45 would be less expensive and probably be a better choice given the diverse backgrounds and discipline level of every person in service. Again this is what I think he is saying.

I am really at the collective mercy as to who uses what. If you know that a specific special forces group is using custom 1911 pistols by choice then I will take you all at your collective word. I honestly have no idea. What I do know is that I want a serious high end 1911 pistol that will be as reliable as any other pistol I own with acceptable combat accuracy. Guys like Larry Vickers know there stuff and I do value his opinion. I am really a never was, regular guy that can afford and am willing to pay the price both in dollars and in time to get a properly setup 1911 pistol. I am not a SWAT operator or an ex special anything. I just want a great pistol that I can trust and shoot well. I almost wish I did not shoot by friends Les Baer last weekend, but I did and now my brain/desire is in motion.

In all honesty I do not need another gun but we all know what it is like to want a new gun. A custom or semi-custom 1911 is an object of want. My needs are well covered.

DocGKR, thanks for the sage advice. I greatly appreciate it.

[the1911fan]

FWIW, the only "stock" 1911 currently available that I would consider using is the SA Professional, and even then, I would not trust it until after shooting at least 1000 trouble free rounds and having it checked out by a GOOD pistolsmith. .

I was under the belief that Dave Williams had highly competent gunsmiths building the Professional's.

Learn something new every day

[Vinh]

FWIW, the only "stock" 1911 currently available that I would consider using is the SA Professional, and even then, I would not trust it until after shooting at least 1000 trouble free rounds and having it checked out by a GOOD pistolsmith. None of the other standard and semi-custom 1911's I have observed have proven to consistently offer acceptable hard-use reliability and durability out of the box. Both my SA Loaded's exhibited significant functional and QA problems; likewise I had two high dollar 1911's customized by well known pistol smiths that turned out to be unreliable dogs that I had to get rid of.

Agreed. I have wasted so much money on 1911s that I am able to observe certain trends based just on my ownership experience. For me, the Springfield Pro is pretty much the baseline performance-wise, and even then, it'll probably need some work. I don't even bother test firing other non-"signature-grade" 1911s anymore. They just don't seem to tolerate any type of meaningful firing schedule, so they go straight to a pistolsmith.

As far as I can tell, no amount of money can guarantee you a serviceable 1911. You pretty much have to use the brute-force method and hope you get lucky.

[STS]

Agreed. I have wasted so much money on 1911s that I am able to observe certain trends based just on my ownership experience. For me, the Springfield Pro is pretty much the baseline performance-wise, and even then, it'll probably need some work. I don't even bother test firing other non-"signature-grade" 1911s anymore. They just don't seem to tolerate any type of meaningful firing schedule, so they go straight to a pistolsmith.

As far as I can tell, no amount of money can guarantee you a serviceable 1911. You pretty much have to use the brute-force method and hope you get lucky.

Vinh,

It sounds like you have had some bad luck with 1911's. What makes you keep coming back and spending more on them? Do you just prefer them over other platforms? Shoot them better?

[DocGKR]

the1911fan -- The SA Professionals are built well, that is why it I mentioned that they are the only non-custom 1911 I would currently consider purchasing; however, the SA Pro's are too tight and most I've seen still need a bit of tweaking before they are 100% reliable.

The all too frequent threads monotonously discussing what handgun to carry can become tedious. For me, there are basically two choices for an individually purchased and maintained hard-use primary carry gun that have proven to stand the test of time and risen above the pack: a stock Glock 17 and a properly customized 1911. The G19, M&P's, and HK45 are close behind.

The 9 mm Glock 17 has proven to be an an affordable, simple, robust pistol that offers good reliability and acceptable durability (except for fragile sights) right out of the box. I've seen quite a few G17's last 100,000 rounds.

As stated before, for the experienced shooter willing to invest significant time and money, as well as quite a bit of maintenance and practice effort, there is no better or more "shootable" handgun than a properly customized .45 ACP 5" steel frame single-stack 1911. If I could only own one handgun, it would be a Chuck Rogers or Vickers modified 1911. If you are willing to spend $2500.00 or so beyond the price of the pistol and have the time and patience to wait for a qualified pistolsmith to transform your 1911, you will likely wind up with a handgun of incomparable combat reliability and durability--one whose lineage has proven to last beyond 100,000 rounds.

Otherwise, DO NOT get a 1911 for a hard use carry gun; get a G17/19, M&P, or HK45 and then focus on training and mindset!